Hodgdon Firestick? Why?

[6string]

I was at the range yesterday and found a pile of orange tubes with 209 shotgun primers in them. They looked like something LEGO and Mattel would make if they went into the firearms business together. Then, I found some packaging that described these things as being "Firesticks", made by Hodgdon.
So, when I got home, I looked it up. As I figured, they are the latest thing in the world of plastic inline "muzzleloaders". Not my thing at all. But, different strokes for different folks.
Everything I read, though, about these Firesticks just makes me ask "Why?"...

-They're expensive ($26.95/10 of them)
-They (supposedly?) can't be reloaded (that's a deal breaker right there!!)
-They are ultra-proprietary. In other words, the "planned obsolescence" is baked in.
Discontinue the gun or the firestick, and either is worthless. Given that only a small number of states have approved this gizmo for muzzleloading season, the chance of sudden discontinuation is very real.
-They just seem to be one more step in the "what is is?" redefinition of muzzleloading.
-And, just on a personal note, I could express my strong dislike for the aesthetics of the firearm for which they are intended. Does every gosh-darn thing need to be a cheesy Walmart/Big-Box store-looking piece of plastic?

Am I missing something?

[Nobade]

No, you've pretty well got it. I can see the ability to unload your rifle after a day's hunt then load it again the next day as being beneficial but otherwise no.

[6string]

OK, I can see that.

The other thing I noticed was the incredible amount of plastic trash that's generated while using one of these things. The plastic "firesticks" and the plastic sabot jacketed bullets come packaged in wasteful plastic blister packs, and you've got the packaging for the 209 primers ("sold separately"). I'm sure the gun itself comes in a big, ol' blister pack, complete with cutouts to hang on the pegboard display at Wally World.
Seems antithetical to the whole idea of muzzleloading, where typically you find yourself making everything you can for yourself, be it bullet/patch lube, leather accessories/clothing, powder horns, etc.
But, maybe this thing would pair up nicely if you've got a K-Tel "Pocket Fisherman"?

[Woodnbow]

100%..what a waste of plastic all that crap is… if you want to unload your rifle at days end, get a ball discharger and a box of co2 cartridges. Or, uncap, place a scrap of leather over the nipple and lower your hammer onto the cone. That combined with a balloon over the muzzle makes the rifle safe and virtually waterproof. It will go bang when needed.

[fastdadio]

Just goes to prove once again, Barnum & Bailey were right. "There's a sucker born every minute, and we've got a seat for every ***"

[bedbugbilly]

I haven't seen these, but then I have no interest in anything but traditional ML and haven't had for 60 years - but that's me.

I found your post interesting . . you said you found a pile of them at the range. My first thought was if you found a pile there, how any are going to discard these things in the woods and swamps? I'm not a climate control tree hugging sort of guy . . but I believe that when a person goes into the woods, swamps or fields - regardless of if they own the property or not - that when they leave they ought to leave it the same way they found it.

I'm all for getting folks involved in BP shooting . . . . and I know many want to be able to extend their hunting so they go out and buy a new fangled "muzzleloader" that isn't traditional. But "improvements" like the "fire sticks" you describe, IMHO, is one step closer to a "cartridge". Like I said, I haven't seen these "fire sticks" - but if they have an attached primer, I'm assuming that they are introduced into the bore from the breech? If so . . . . that sort of eliminates the definition of a "muzzleloader" doesn't it" If I'm wrong about that . . . I apologize and stand corrected

[deces]

Companies go way out of there way for black powder users. It would be nice if Hodgdon would import more powders for the starved market.

[M-Tecs]

Companies go way out of there way for black powder users. It would be nice if Hodgdon would import more powders for the starved market.

I know one of the Hodgdon family members. They import everything they can get their hands on. They could sell a lot more product if they could get it.

[deces]

I know one of the Hodgdon family members. They import everything they can get their hands on. They could sell a lot more product if they could get it.

They could also sell a lot more if they started making it, you know from the manufacturing plants where their competitors were making if before Hodgdon bought them out.

[Woodnbow]

They could also sell a lot more if they started making it, you know from the manufacturing plants where their competitors were making if before Hodgdon bought them out.

I’m told that GOEX will be shipped blackpowder soon…

[M-Tecs]

They could also sell a lot more if they started making it, you know from the manufacturing plants where their competitors were making if before Hodgdon bought them out.

https://hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploa...update-2-1.pdf

**POWDER UPDATE***
We have and will always appreciate feedback from our community, and we hear you and your
suggestions for us to make more powder. With this post, our goal is to clear up several items and
dispel misinformation.
WHY CAN’T HODGDON MAKE MORE POWDER?
We wish it were that simple - what we have experienced since 2020 is a demand issue and not a
supply issue. The reality is we are doing everything possible to maximize shipments to our customers, including running overtime in production, packaging and shipping areas and working with
our shipping partners to add new inbound and outbound shipping options. We are absolutely shipping more powder to our customers.
The issue is this powder is quickly purchased when our retailers place it on store shelves or on
their websites. Hodgdon will continue to ship powder, but the inventory situation will likely continue until demand begins to normalize.
WHY CAN’T HODGDON BUILD ANOTHER POWDER PLANT?
A new powder production facility would require an investment far beyond our finances and no financial
institution would finance this type of building project. While the current demand appears to be different
from demand spikes in the last 20 years, the “normal” powder demand for the U.S. would not support
an additional manufacturing plant. Most companies cannot afford to build a new production facility and
then have it set idle until demand spikes. An additional complicating factor would be locating this plant –
there are only a handful of these facilities in North America and none have been built in the last 30
years.
WHY CAN’T HODGDON SHIP MORE POWDER?
As we’ve shared in many responses to our social audience, this is a demand issue and not a supply issue. Demand for ALL ammunition and reloading components is at historic levels. The fact is
we continue to ship more powder to our customers, but this powder is quickly purchased by end
consumers as soon as it is offered for sale.
WHY IS HODGDON SELLING POWDER TO AMMUNITION MANUFACTURERS?
Our focus is the handloading enthusiast. Yes, we sell some powder to strategic, mostly smaller ammunition manufacturers, but that is a small part of our business. The heart of our business is smokeless
powder for the handloading enthusiast. Every day, we receive calls from potential OEM customers who
are looking for powder to load in ammunition. Every day, we politely decline this new business so we
can focus on our long-term customers and sales channels and most importantly, our costumers who
have supported us for decades.
WHY IS HODGDON SELLING POWDER ON AUCTION SITES?
Hodgdon does not sell powder on any online auction sites. We sell through traditional sales
channels to wholesalers, retailers and dealer customers. While we recently began selling direct-to-consumer on our own websites, we prioritize our shipments to our traditional sales channels to maximize
powder availability at sporting goods and gun shops everywhere.
WHY IS THE PRICE OF POWDER SO HIGH ON THE INTERNET?
Hodgdon has increased prices over the last several years to partially offset our increased labor, raw
materials and transportation costs, but we are not and will not gouge our consumer end users who are
looking for powder to load for their own use. We sell through traditional sales channels to wholesalers,
retailers and dealer customers. We do not encourage any of our retailers or dealers to sell on auction
sites, but we cannot control what happens after we sell to our traditional sales channels. On our own
websites, we have placed product limits on purchases so that we can maximize the number of customers who can buy our powder.
CLOSING NOTES:
Hodgdon is still a small business, with fewer than a hundred employees between three facilities in
Kansas and Montana. We are not driven by profit-margin spreadsheets, but rather tradition and a
genuine love for our jobs and what is made possible because of the work we do.
Serving you is our privilege and a blessing. In the current political climate, demand for our product
has never been higher. Coupled with COVID restrictions, we have what some might refer to as
“the perfect storm.” Regardless, we remain steadfast and resolute in our purpose to put powder in
your hands, our shooting community. Please be patient and know we will get through this together.

[M-Tecs]

The EPA shut down most if not all US powder manufactures except for St, Marks Florida production and Goex. St. Marks produces most if not all of the small arms powder for the US Military.

https://www.longrangehunting.com/thr...states.241267/
Ok, I did some sleuthing around on the Internet and found the article shown below. Don't know who the is the author, but it confirms what Magnum Maniac and Jerry M wrote above. The year it was written , 2016.

St, Marks Florida. It's the onetime Olin Corp plant, now part of General Dynamics. It makes double-based ball powders only or those (Such as Hodgdon Hybrid 100V and some Alliant types) using the same slurry / distillation based process.

All Winchester and Hodgdon ball / 'spherical' grades are supplied by St. Marks as are nearly all propellants used in US military small arms ammo, the US government having decided way back in the 1950s with 7.62 adoption that this type would be the norm, sniper and special purpose ammo aside.

Ramshot / Accurate ball powder comes from PB Clermont in Belgium. Hodgdon extruded grades and IMR-8208 XBR from Thales / ADI in Mulwala, NSW, Australia. Other than 8208 XBR, IMR extruded rifle powders are also made by a General Dynamics Corp owned plant in Valleyfield, Ontario, Canada. (Hodgdon owns the IMR brand name and marketing rights IIRC.) This plant also makes some Accurate brand extruded numbers. All Vihtavuori powders come from the town of that name in Finland.

Alliant 'Reloder' extruded grades were all made by Bofors in Sweden until a few years ago, but some recent additions such as Re17 and Re33 are sourced from Nitrochemie Wimmins AG in Switzerland. Alliant has also started using spherical grades from St. Marks.

Health & Safety and the EPA is the primary reason that all extruded powders are made outside of the USA. Ball types manufacture uses non-inflammable / explosive slurries with material piped between processes until the little balls are distilled out at a late stage for chemical treatments and grading. This method also allows old out of date propellants to be recycled alongside fresh ingredients reducing costs.

Extruded powders start by dissolving cellulose in powerful acids, a dangerous exothermic process and whose products are immediately highly explosive and inflammable, then further inherently dangerous processes and solvents are used to convert 'guncotton' into usable propellants. Many of the materials used are corrosive and toxic, likewise creating waste and pollution issues that have to be dealt with nowadays, not just dumped into waste ground or rivers as would once have been done.

All this makes the manufacture of this type inherently riskier which in this day and age is also much more expensive. A guy in the handloading powder business stated years ago that the EPA hadn't banned extruded powder manufacture, but its regulations were so onerous that any such produced in the country, (USA), would be so expensive, nobody would buy them.

Extruded propellants are widely manufactured in Europe still, although many older plants have closed over the last 20-30 years. None at all are manufactured in the USA since the DuPont Corporation firstly moved propellant production to Canada then later sold that operation. No doubt, the American military's decision to switch to ball propellants was a major influence here as military demand is the largest single component of many explosive manufacturers' business. Nevertheless, the US market for sporting ammunition and her industry's manufacturing outputs probably exceeds all of that of Europe combined.

Yes, I know Europe has high safety and environmental standards - the UK has not manufactured propellants since the ICI Nobel plant in Scotland closed in the late 1980s or early 1990s. However, there is a big difference between having exacting regulations and having such that are so onerous that there might as well be a complete ban which is what my contacts in the American handloading powders business have told me about the EPA's attitudes to manufacturing this (extruded) form.

One area where the EC is becoming more restrictive than the US is fast appearing though. That is the EC REACH program which is steadily evaluating every chemical used and identifying risks to human health, then legally forcing their replacements with safer alternatives.

It is known that some traditional chemical burning rate deterrents and other such behavior modifiers long used in small arms propellants are deemed to be in the dangerous category, so many long established powders are now living on borrowed time. A little commented on element of the blurb about the new IMR Enduron powders is that they are 'environmentally friendly'. It actually goes a bit further than that as many existing powders will not be allowed to be sold in EC countries in a very few years time, nor will ammunition loaded with them. General Dynamics / IMR is getting itself geared up to this challenge with its new products. Once the new regulations start to apply no older long established IMR grades will be compliant, that also applying to many other makes. I don't know how this affects many existing European manufacturers other than Nitrochemie whose powders are already compliant, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if this doesn't sound the death knell for some as there is substantially more capacity than demand for powders, given the lack of wartime requirements, but western governments have long since stopped worrying about that.

So far at any rate, there seems to be no US equivalent to REACH in this field, so many older propellants will continue to be sold in this market, likewise loaded ammunition.

[deces]

The EPA shut down most if not all US powder manufactures except for St, Marks Florida production and Goex. St. Marks produces most if not all of the small arms powder for the US Military.

https://www.longrangehunting.com/thr...states.241267/
Ok, I did some sleuthing around on the Internet and found the article shown below. Don't know who the is the author, but it confirms what Magnum Maniac and Jerry M wrote above. The year it was written , 2016.

St, Marks Florida. It's the onetime Olin Corp plant, now part of General Dynamics. It makes double-based ball powders only or those (Such as Hodgdon Hybrid 100V and some Alliant types) using the same slurry / distillation based process.

All Winchester and Hodgdon ball / 'spherical' grades are supplied by St. Marks as are nearly all propellants used in US military small arms ammo, the US government having decided way back in the 1950s with 7.62 adoption that this type would be the norm, sniper and special purpose ammo aside.

Ramshot / Accurate ball powder comes from PB Clermont in Belgium. Hodgdon extruded grades and IMR-8208 XBR from Thales / ADI in Mulwala, NSW, Australia. Other than 8208 XBR, IMR extruded rifle powders are also made by a General Dynamics Corp owned plant in Valleyfield, Ontario, Canada. (Hodgdon owns the IMR brand name and marketing rights IIRC.) This plant also makes some Accurate brand extruded numbers. All Vihtavuori powders come from the town of that name in Finland.

Alliant 'Reloder' extruded grades were all made by Bofors in Sweden until a few years ago, but some recent additions such as Re17 and Re33 are sourced from Nitrochemie Wimmins AG in Switzerland. Alliant has also started using spherical grades from St. Marks.

Health & Safety and the EPA is the primary reason that all extruded powders are made outside of the USA. Ball types manufacture uses non-inflammable / explosive slurries with material piped between processes until the little balls are distilled out at a late stage for chemical treatments and grading. This method also allows old out of date propellants to be recycled alongside fresh ingredients reducing costs.

Extruded powders start by dissolving cellulose in powerful acids, a dangerous exothermic process and whose products are immediately highly explosive and inflammable, then further inherently dangerous processes and solvents are used to convert 'guncotton' into usable propellants. Many of the materials used are corrosive and toxic, likewise creating waste and pollution issues that have to be dealt with nowadays, not just dumped into waste ground or rivers as would once have been done.

All this makes the manufacture of this type inherently riskier which in this day and age is also much more expensive. A guy in the handloading powder business stated years ago that the EPA hadn't banned extruded powder manufacture, but its regulations were so onerous that any such produced in the country, (USA), would be so expensive, nobody would buy them.

Extruded propellants are widely manufactured in Europe still, although many older plants have closed over the last 20-30 years. None at all are manufactured in the USA since the DuPont Corporation firstly moved propellant production to Canada then later sold that operation. No doubt, the American military's decision to switch to ball propellants was a major influence here as military demand is the largest single component of many explosive manufacturers' business. Nevertheless, the US market for sporting ammunition and her industry's manufacturing outputs probably exceeds all of that of Europe combined.

Yes, I know Europe has high safety and environmental standards - the UK has not manufactured propellants since the ICI Nobel plant in Scotland closed in the late 1980s or early 1990s. However, there is a big difference between having exacting regulations and having such that are so onerous that there might as well be a complete ban which is what my contacts in the American handloading powders business have told me about the EPA's attitudes to manufacturing this (extruded) form.

One area where the EC is becoming more restrictive than the US is fast appearing though. That is the EC REACH program which is steadily evaluating every chemical used and identifying risks to human health, then legally forcing their replacements with safer alternatives.

It is known that some traditional chemical burning rate deterrents and other such behavior modifiers long used in small arms propellants are deemed to be in the dangerous category, so many long established powders are now living on borrowed time. A little commented on element of the blurb about the new IMR Enduron powders is that they are 'environmentally friendly'. It actually goes a bit further than that as many existing powders will not be allowed to be sold in EC countries in a very few years time, nor will ammunition loaded with them. General Dynamics / IMR is getting itself geared up to this challenge with its new products. Once the new regulations start to apply no older long established IMR grades will be compliant, that also applying to many other makes. I don't know how this affects many existing European manufacturers other than Nitrochemie whose powders are already compliant, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if this doesn't sound the death knell for some as there is substantially more capacity than demand for powders, given the lack of wartime requirements, but western governments have long since stopped worrying about that.

So far at any rate, there seems to be no US equivalent to REACH in this field, so many older propellants will continue to be sold in this market, likewise loaded ammunition.

Thanks, I was reading that very page after I posted earlier. I was thinking as I read it, why hasn't a corporation taken the epa to court over this nonsense. They get spanked all the time in the courts. Especially since this a matter of national security for the military.

[M-Tecs]

Thanks, I was reading that very page after I posted earlier. I was thinking as I read it, why hasn't a corporation taken the epa to court over this nonsense. They get spanked all the time in the courts. Especially since this a matter of national security for the military.

Indvidual's and corporations have limited budgets. The Government has unlimited funds via our tax dollars. That makes them impossible to beat long term.

[TNsailorman]

Hit the nail on the head M-Tecs. They use our money to kick us in the teeth. The government can be your friend at times and your worst enemy at other times. james

[bedbugbilly]

Everyone needs to remember things like this WHEN THEY VOTE!

[charlie b]

So, which vote would help this? We (US) have a powder plant that supplies the military and produces enough excess to sell to the public. It is a production process that seems to meet current and probably future environmental requirements.

Other countries make a lot of extra powder that we can buy from folks that import it. So far their facilities are remaining in compliance with their laws.

Eventually the financial realities of the stick powder production process might mean shutting them down. As the systems age a large investment will be required to keep them going. Will there be a demand to support that?