The 40-70 Sharps Straight Challenge

[Chill Wills]

I know this flies into the face of some beliefs, but what I think is going on comes from a bunch of rounds down range thru a 405 Winchester.
I just don’t think blackpowder can generate enough velocity to keep long heavy bullets stable in a fast twist 40 cal
Load that baby up with 4895 or stiff charges of 5744 and the groups get smaller and bullet holes stay round

Don???? Smokeless powder in a Black powder match? Hmmmm... I might as well bring a 6.5 Creedmoor.

The ten shot group Dick H. preserved for me in the 600yd pit only had 5" of vertical. We didn't have wind flags out, just using mirage for wind and shooting iron sights on the round black bull. I think the load shoots pretty well at this point. I just hope to see if a little front end support for the bullet before launching will aid in the yaw. .....if there is yaw.? I may have read the cardboard wrong.
If the bullet was tipping, it wasn't much. I shot nine turkeys last match at Smithmoor range and the miss was me making a bad break. Called it high and it was high. The mirage was so rough at Rams we could not see the hits through the spotting scope much less center up the target with iron sights. I only connected with 6 rams. That was a hard condition to hit anything.

This is the best shooting bullet I have had in a 70-70 SS since 2004 when I first started shooting the Axtell sharps. Now I am on to the Winchester which fits me better. BTW- leading is zero with this load just in case someone was wondering.

[Don McDowell]

Just wondering if 3f might give enough velocity to keep that bullet stable in all condition?
Not sure about the 6.5 but maybe some blackthorn duplexes.����

[Chill Wills]

Why do you think the bullet is not stable? I think it very well could be very stable in varying strong conditions. It has proved stable in regular conditions.

[Don McDowell]

Well I hope it does work for you but from the couple of decades of messing with the 405 my experience is those heavy 40 cal bullets need to crawl out the end of the barrel somewhere north of 1600 fps to be dependable at distance. Even at that as they tend to slow down and hit some wind currents things can get a bit off kilter jumping up to 1800 + helps.

[Chill Wills]

Well I hope it does work for you but from the couple of decades of messing with the 405 my experience is those heavy 40 cal bullets need to crawl out the end of the barrel somewhere north of 1600 fps to be dependable at distance. Even at that as they tend to slow down and hit some wind currents things can get a bit off kilter jumping up to 1800 + helps.

Don, I am shooting a 40-70 Sharps Straight using the 405 Winchester Hornady brass as the bases of the 40-70 cases. I have mega powder capacity. A 13 twist and stability well in excess of what the formulas require. I have no idea what you keep talking about ....1600, 1800 FPS???? This is Black Powder Cartridge Rifle silhouette. The rifle is working like a champ.

[Lead pot]

Since I been down grating from my large calibers and reading these posts on the .40-70 I drug my .40-2.5-70 out of retirement for many years I even have some shells left over I think from the Alliance Gong shoot from the early 2000 loaded that have turned gray and dingy. These are loaded with 68 grs of 2F Goes exp with a 1.4" long PP at 418 grs.
This was my load for the long range shoots and I think they reached around 1250 - 1280 fps not sure anymore, shot with my 1/16 twist Shiloh. this load held well to the 1K and at Lodi for the 800, 900 and the 1000 yard paper match and with round holes through the paper. I really don't know why it ended up buried deep in the iron box.
You can see that they turned gray like me.
I was going to the range with them this morning but it's pouring down rain.

[Chill Wills]

Post match report today.
40-70 SS shooting the 461 grain 1.515" length Creedmoor bullet in the 13-twist barrel.
The rifle and load shot very well. (again!) Light but tricky winds were the rule. Though I never hope to shoot in hard twisty winds with sheer to knock the bullets around, shooting well in those kinds of conditions really prove a bullets worth. Today good conditions prevailed, the bullet and load accuracy was all I hope for but after three matches of good conditions, I still don't know how stable this bullet can be when things get tough. I hope to shoot it at 600yds in the paper target cardboard again this coming week to see how round the holes of the current load looks.

Zero leading with the 95-2.5-2.5 alloy

[Don McDowell]

A real good test would be if you could get on the 800 yard line at Byers in the typical winds there

[Chill Wills]

A real good test would be if you could get on the 800 yard line at Byers in the typical winds there

It would be interesting to shoot a 8, 9, 1000y creedmoor....

[Lead pot]

I have to dig into my score sheets and see if I can find the finals for Lodi that I shot the .40-70 at the 8,9 and 1000 yd match. I think it was around 2015.
I only used it once at Lodi and it held pretty well.
Kurt

[Chill Wills]

Kurt, as you know, it is generally thought that the 40 cal is at a great disadvantage to the 45's in Creedmoor.
I don't know.
I have always shot Creedmoor with my 45's. Oddly, I have had some really good finishes using the smallest 45, the 45-70 early on but switched to the larger 45's and stuck with them.
"Trust the science!" they say.
Caliber should not have a bearing on 1000yd outcome and Bc controls what works best. Just look at F-class rifles. But, we all shoot 45's.
So, if Bc really controls and not caliber, this very long, high Bc 40 caliber bullet should really shine. I have never shot a 40cal past 600yds. I will say, in 2015 I set the NRA 600yd 10 shot record at the nationals (Whittington Center) with a 40-60 Maynard shooting a 407grn DanT bullet. Can 40's run with the big dog's at 1000yds? Not sure. What were your Lodi scores?

[Lead pot]

The .40 is lacking over the larger calibers at long range but I have seen the .40-65 and the .40-70 place pretty high and with my limited ability I have ended up in the mid to high 470's with my .40-70 at the 800-1000.
Heck just this season I heard that the .38-50 won the 1000. I feel that it's still the person shooting that can finish with the high score.
I shot my .40-70 today shooting cases empty that have been loaded for many years and pulled three cases in halve

[Don McDowell]

From observing in the pits pulling targets of shooters shooting 38's and 40's, things fall apart pretty fast when the winds pickup or get twitchy. But that's not to say that the big 40's like the various versions of the 40-82 and the 40-90 bn can't be in the thick of things.
But no matter what the bc it boils down to bullet length/twist and velocity. The velocity part is where things fall apart for our beloved bpcr's when the distances get long.
I've actually watched bullets that shoot lights out at 600 and less loose stability as the ranges get longer and instead of coming into the target in a nice arc look more like they're riding the handrail on a spiral stair case, yet still leave nice round holes in the target.

[steveu]

Michael, how did the match go last week?

[45-110]

I am building up a Ballard in 40-70 with a 1-14 twist. Going to use the shorter 415 gr. PP DD that has worked so very well in my .40-82 silhouette. My scores went up considerately when I went from a longer 450 gr bullet to the shorter version. 900 yds is pushing it, but have been very pleased by ending up in the top 3 shooters for our local matches.
kw

[Chill Wills]

Michael, how did the match go last week?

Steve, I am not sure I learned much at that match. The mirage was as bad as anything I have ever seen.... or not seen! Hits and misses could not be seen even with spotting scopes half the time. Those of us shooting iron sight may have had it better than the scope shooters because we just had a gray fuzzy blur to aim at if you found your target at all. The scope guys were telling me their targets were dancing and dodging in and out of their crosshairs and looking through the rifle scope was like swimming under water without a diving mask on.
Anyway - all that to say the scores were not so great. However, still fun and seeing everyone still made for a great day.

There is a match in Watkins, Colo tomorrow.

[Chill Wills]

At yesterday's match I learned I have been shooting with a broken firing pin.
That can give the impact enough vertical to make me wonder what was my old eyeballs and what was the ignition. In a way, this is hopeful!