The 40-70 Sharps Straight Challenge

[Randy Bohannon]

Length isn’t the problem, when the brass is stretched the brass is not always going to the length. Somehow the web/primer pocket gets more than it should. One thing I haven’t tried is going through all the brass and separating the brass that chambers without shaving, going to try that now that I’m thinking about it. All of my 40-70 SS brass is “2.5” same as the chamber.

[Chill Wills]

I have not had time to get out and test this rifle and load since the match on the 5th. Next Saturday is the next chance at a match and maybe a load test day Thursday or Friday. I am excited to test these very hard, very long bullets again.

[Chill Wills]

Length isn’t the problem, when the brass is stretched the brass is not always going to the length. Somehow the web/primer pocket gets more than it should. One thing I haven’t tried is going through all the brass and separating the brass that chambers without shaving, going to try that now that I’m thinking about it. All of my 40-70 SS brass is “2.5” same as the chamber.

This Hornady brass is trimmed to 2.5" after it is FL sized, and once it is fired, shortens to about 2.475".
I have used it neck sized and short and FL sized and long again with about the same result. So far, I have not had the problem with any of it separating.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

I use the Jamison Brass, now unataunuim. 57.5 gr with a David Mos 387 gr bullet is a tack driver when I do my part. My silhouette loads run around 63.5 to 66.0 grs of Swiss with a BACO money 447 gr bullet. All my bullets are cast at 14.5-1.
A HDPE .060 wad and Fed 210 match primers. Never could get consistent accuracy with pistol primers.

KW

[Lead pot]

Another option for the .40-70 brass might be the .375 Flanged Magnum (9.5×75mmR), This brass is used for the double rifles mostly but the base runs a little larger, .010" but think it could be swaged down with a sizing die with the EZ rounded edge trimmed off the bottom and the case pushed in to the rim.
I was looking for some earlier this summer and found some Hornady for under $10. per 20 but they wanted a $150. minimum order. I also used the 9.3X74R brass.
I was thinking about using the .375 brass for the .38-50 because the .30-40 Krag is just about none existing anymore.

[Don McDowell]

So do we have tales of woe or cheers of glee over the new bullet this morning.

[steveu]

My first 74 Shiloh was the .40-2.5 (70) I shot it for several years and it was a little temperamental when I first got it. Back then I used mostly the Lyman and Saeco as well as the RCBS moulds.
I had Steve brooks make me a Snover nosed paper patch mould and it started to show me that this rifle and came to an attention we could agree on and I had a few others made by Paul Jones.
I found the longer that ogive radius got the harder it was keeping a good finish at the Gongs so I went back to the blunter nosed shorter ogive radiuses and this work out good for me.
One night I got a call from Dave Gullo and he asked me some questions for making PP moulds and I told him what I liked and later Jim called me again and we came up with the design of the 3 in the photo and it turned out to be a very good shooter. Then the 4 on the right I had BA make and the first three shoot very well in the .40-70 with a 1/16 ROT and the .40-65 14 ROT.
The forth shoots well in the 14 ROT but falters in the 16 at longer ranges.
Those dimples are where the ogive meats the shank and that is where I hold the patch. For a slower twist I like the ogive farther up front.
My .40-2.5 I like the .405 Win brass. The wall thickness is just right for the PP. Shoot, clean and reload. They never need a die for the next reload.
A lot of shooters get their moulds by weight of the bullet. Think length for your ROT and not weight. Your alloy temper will change the weight but not the proper length for the ROT.

Kurt


Attachment 317543Attachment 317544

Kurt, what is the nose profile for the first bullet in the picture on the right?

[Lead pot]

Steve,

That bullet has a R-10 I think, cant say for sure anymore.
I favor the blunter nosed ellipticals. Yes they take a point or three more of elevation but they hit nose first

[Chill Wills]

40-70SS Challenge 2.0 Match day. 40-70SS Highwall, 13 twist. 461 grain Creedmoor bullet.
Started on Pigs with light winds and a sunny day. The mirage was thicker than I had ever seen it. By the time we got to Rams the spotter could not even see the hits through the Kowa scope! I was shooting Iron sight and was just trying to center the wavy moving blob as best I could. It was kinda funny in a way. If I hit a ram, Dan, my spotter would say (with irony) you hit it, ...somewhere? It went down. 10 Pigs, 9 Turkeys, 6 Rams and a Chicken. I think the load is working better than anything I have ever tried in it before, and that says a lot! It looks like I still need to make friends with the rifle for offhand. For all of us shooting yesterday, the morning targets, whatever they were, went better than the afternoon. ....Despite the wonderful lunch provided by the Smith family!!! If you every get a chance to shoot at Smithmoor, don't pass it up!

[Chill Wills]

Here is something you might find interesting. The load is this long 461grn bullet, and 64.5grs of Olde Swissford. That is, half and half of some almost ten year old Swiss I could not make shoot to my liking and some Olde Eynsford that I guess I just didn't know how to make work. Having tried these two powders by themself in the normal way with no luck, out of pure frustration, I mixed two cans of one with two cans of the other, making 4 pounds to work with and developed a very good load for one of my 40-60 Maynard. After receiving this Buffalo Arms bullet this past year, I started load development on the 40-70SS right off with the hybrid Olde Swissford and it seems to be working too, tho more testing is needed. Also being used is a 0.090" LDPE wad to help ease the start of the long nosed bullet. Does it help??? I don't know. I have not tested the load with thinner wads yet.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Stick to the thick wads.

Kenny Wasserburger

[Kenny Wasserburger]

My first 74 Shiloh was the .40-2.5 (70) I shot it for several years and it was a little temperamental when I first got it. Back then I used mostly the Lyman and Saeco as well as the RCBS moulds.
I had Steve brooks make me a Snover nosed paper patch mould and it started to show me that this rifle and came to an attention we could agree on and I had a few others made by Paul Jones.
I found the longer that ogive radius got the harder it was keeping a good finish at the Gongs so I went back to the blunter nosed shorter ogive radiuses and this work out good for me.
One night I got a call from Dave Gullo and he asked me some questions for making PP moulds and I told him what I liked and later Jim called me again and we came up with the design of the 3 in the photo and it turned out to be a very good shooter. Then the 4 on the right I had BA make and the first three shoot very well in the .40-70 with a 1/16 ROT and the .40-65 14 ROT.
The forth shoots well in the 14 ROT but falters in the 16 at longer ranges.
Those dimples are where the ogive meats the shank and that is where I hold the patch. For a slower twist I like the ogive farther up front.
My .40-2.5 I like the .405 Win brass. The wall thickness is just right for the PP. Shoot, clean and reload. They never need a die for the next reload.
A lot of shooters get their moulds by weight of the bullet. Think length for your ROT and not weight. Your alloy temper will change the weight but not the proper length for the ROT.

Kurt


Attachment 317543Attachment 317544

Good pictures and good designs the far right looks good so Does #2 and #3.

Thanks for posting Kurt.

Kenny Wasserburger

[Lead pot]

Chill I did the very same thing with left over Diamond UGG, Schuetzen, Goes exp and old Dupont of different granulations and it turned out that it would splinter a 200 yard bowling pin hanging on a wire by the time ending the range session.

Kenny,

All of those bullets shoot very good in the .40-70 and the other .40-65's I have except the far right one in the group of 4. That bullet will shoot well to the 1023 yard iron on the BIG HILL using the 14 twist with a very tight case necked chamber CPA .40-65. but gets wild in the 16 ROT's at that range.

[Randy Bohannon]

Here’s a 200 yard target I shot a couple of years ago with P.P. Steve Brooks Money Bullet @410grs. I don’t remember what brass I used as I didn’t write it down but it’s as good as anything I have shot in my Shiloh 40-70 SS. I need to see if I can do it again.

[JWT]

I finally received the Sharps 74 that I ordered five years ago so I guess I will be getting into the 40 straight challenge with a 40-90. I have been accumulating brass so I am good there. Any advice on paper patch and/or grease groove molds would be greatly appreciated.

[semtav]

Any advice on paper patch and/or grease groove molds would be greatly appreciated.

I have only shot this bullet in a 40-82, but the 403415E is a tack driver in it with a fast twist barrel.
It's a Dual diameter paper patch bullet.
It has a bit more Major diameter so you seat it in a bit. Baco also makes one that you barely seat in the case. Just don't remember the number.

[Lead pot]

The Dual diameter is a good design, especially if your chamber has a bunch of free bore. I have a couple rifles that have long free bore from .05 to .110" and as much as .400"
The .400" I use a free bore diameter PP that fits the free bore and seated into the throat lead but this can be a problem like using a GG having alignment issues.
The DD PP has the advantage or the Major base at groove diameter with a 3º taper down to the minor and longer shank diameter keeping that shank patched at bore diameter chambered straight like a Breach seated bullet.

A chamber with a lot of free bore can be made to shoot well using a GG bullet. But the design of the bullet has to be changed some what is normally used now. It has to look like a PP straight sided with out a bore riding step down, it has to be at the free bore diameter and it will shoot just as well as a chambered rifle with out the free bore.

Those bullets I swaged for the .400" plus free bore rifle and the grooved as well as the knurled are at free bore diameter with out a step down at the shank ogive transition like a bore riding GG has

[.22-10-45]

Back in 96' my custom Axtel Sharps model 77' in .40-21/2" arrived after nearly a years wait. Loaded up Rem. brass (stretched .30-40 from Buffalo Arms) with H4895 and the Ideal .405 Win. bullet cast 20-1 with home brewed lube. First time out at 100yd. range..shot 5 into 1 ragged hole..not supposed to happen that easy!....OOPS!... my bad..completely missed B.P. forum.
Now then..I have an original Remington rolling block mid-range in.40-70 str. I only use real black in this one. Using Swiss
1 1/2 and a Brooks 330gr. Postal cast 20-1 .409dia. and home brewed lube, getting around 1" to 1 1/8" groups at 100yds. Using blowtube between shots.

[Chill Wills]

I just got done with loading the ammo for Saturday's BPCR Silhouette match. I will be using the Highwall rifle and 40-70 SS chamber cut for shortened Hornady's 405Win. brass. This is the same rifle and case I have been working with since starting this post. Same load too. 40-70 SS with a 461 grain Creedmoor bullet cast in hard 95-2.5-2.5 alloy to hold the nose from slumping. Alloys of 20 -1 and 16-1 did not do it and poor accuracy was the result. I also am using a thicker wad, .090" LDPE. Also, the same power charge, 64.5grs of 50-50 Olde Swissford ffg.

I tweaked the load a little for this match to see if it will be at all better (more accurate) at the rams. The only change I made was to use everything the same but seat the bullet out a little longer. My OAL (loaded) before was 3.515". Now trying OAL of 3.575. Before, I was using a little jump into the rifling and now this bullet is seating gently up against the rifling. I made this change, not because of poor ram count but because I put it on paper at 600yds with a friend pulling in the pits. For one group, I asked him not to mark the hits while I shot a group so I could see the roundness of the holes. The load worked very well with little vertical, however, it was hard to tell but I think a saw just the slightest hint of a tip in the cardboard target.

If I get the chance, I better shoot a few on paper before Saturday just to make sure I did not load myself into a problem.

I am out of picture credit so no pictures!!! I need to work on that.

[Don McDowell]

I know this flies into the face of some beliefs, but what I think is going on comes from a bunch of rounds down range thru a 405 Winchester.
I just don’t think blackpowder can generate enough velocity to keep long heavy bullets stable in a fast twist 40 cal
Load that baby up with 4895 or stiff charges of 5744 and the groups get smaller and bullet holes stay round