regular production black powder 45 colt 44-40???

[RyanJames170]

Dose anyone know when they stopped making black powder 45 colt, 44-40 cartridges? and was there a point where they moved to solid head cases and loaded them with black powder or did solid head cases come after black powder loaded had been dropped?

[KCSO]

I have only found black in balloon head cases so far. This is with 45/44 and various rifle rounds.

[RyanJames170]

I have only found black in balloon head cases so far. This is with 45/44 and various rifle rounds.

I assume they dropped black powder before the solid case head was used in 45 colt factory loadings how ever giving the time span since then I wonder if most of not all the late production ammo wasn’t shot up when people really got into old western guns post WWII.

I did a little reading after posting this and In Phil sharpe’s book he notes 44-40 and 45 colt were still offered in BP. By who or still in production he dose not mention, as they could of simply been selling stocks of old stuff

[StrawHat]

If you see a case head with a stamp, S H that indicates solid head. However, the solid head they reference is what most call a balloon head, a term not used in the day. The solid head was preferred to the folded head.

Kevin

[RyanJames170]

If you see a case head with a stamp, S H that indicates solid head. However, the solid head they reference is what most call a balloon head, a term not used in the day. The solid head was preferred to the folded head.

Kevin

When did they move to the modern solid head cases for revolver and rifle brass? I assume before WWII because of things like 303, 30-40 army, 357 magnum ect

[Tall]

Solid head cases were introduced in the 1890's. Everything was still black powder then. Black powder ammunition continues to be loaded by boutique stores today. The big companies quit loading BP when WWII broke out. Folded head cases were obsolete long before black powder production ceased.

[Outpost75]

Solid head cases in loaded ammunition can be recognized by the relief groove cut ahead of the rim produced by the head turning operation. Balloon head cases are not head turned and have no groove. Balloon head cases were used to load smokeless powder into the mid-1930s.

Black powder rounds will usually have a copper colored primer which is both corrosive and mercuric. Ammunition boxes carried warning that cases should not be reloaded. After about 1925 noncorrosive and nonmercuric primers were introduced and so indentified on the box. Primers were then Nickle plated for identification.

[Tall]

Solid head cases in loaded ammunition can be recognized by the relief groove cut ahead of the rim produced by the head turning operation.
Black powder rounds will usually have a copper colored primer which is both corrosive and mercuric.

The case I posted a picture of is a Solid Head (Identified with a S H on the case) and it does not have a groove, so that is not relevant information. I use W - W primers and they are not plated at all so that is false too.

[Walks]

Winchester stopped nickle plating primers back in the early 2000's.

[BoBSavage]

Dose anyone know when they stopped making black powder 45 colt, 44-40 cartridges? and was there a point where they moved to solid head cases and loaded them with black powder or did solid head cases come after black powder loaded had been dropped?

The two cartridges were a bit different in the beginning.

The 44-40 has always been manufactured with a solid-head case. Actually still called the 44 W.C.F. at the time, the cases were solid but had a semi-balloon pocket on the inside that surrounded the primer area.

The 1873 civilian version of the 45 Colt cartridge was the same build as the 44 WCF.

While the civilian 45 Colt was an externally primed center fire, solid-head case cartridge...Frankford Arsenal's military cartridge was of the inside bennet primed cases, folded-head type...but still a centerfire cartridge, although be it internal.

Both cartridges were offered with black powder until WWII timeframe.



The middle top is an inside bennet primed example of the military 45 Colt cartridge. The middle bottom was the civilian version solid-head and the bottom right is the solid-head what we have today. The top left is a rim-fire and the top right is a folded balloon-head. The bottom left is a re-enforced folded-balloon-head.

This second style box for the 44-40 was offered in 1874, note the "Solid Head" call-out.


Pre-1884 45 Colt civilian cartridges by UMC.


Across the bottom of this mid-1870's Winchester's 45 Colt black powder boxes can be found..."These Shells Can Be Reloaded Many Times"...untrue if they were balloon-head cases.


UMC's early box labels are nearly identical to Winchester's, or vis verse


This is Frankford's version of the 45 Colt.
Left - 45 Colt
Center and right, 45 Schofield

[indian joe]

The two cartridges were a bit different in the beginning.

The 44-40 has always been manufactured with a solid-head case. Actually still called the 44 W.C.F. at the time, the cases were solid but had a semi-balloon pocket on the inside that surrounded the primer area.

The 1873 civilian version of the 45 Colt cartridge was the same build as the 44 WCF.

While the civilian 45 Colt was an externally primed center fire, solid-head case cartridge...Frankford Arsenal's military cartridge was of the inside bennet primed cases, folded-head type...but still a centerfire cartridge, although be it internal.

Both cartridges were offered with black powder until WWII timeframe.



The middle top is an inside bennet primed example of the military 45 Colt cartridge. The middle bottom was the civilian version solid-head and the bottom right is the solid-head what we have today. The top left is a rim-fire and the top right is a folded balloon-head.

This second style box for the 44-40 was offered in 1874


Pre-1884 45 Colt civilian cartridges by UMC.


Across the bottom of this mid-1870's Winchester's 45 Colt black powder boxes can be found..."These Shells Can Be Reloaded Many Times"...untrue if they balloon-head cases.


UMC's early box labels are nearly identical to Winchester's, or vis verse


This is Frankford's version

so semi balloon head is bottom centre -------Dominion 44/40 ammo purchased in the late 1960's was such - I discarded the last of it a couple of years back - mostly due to lack of numbers - it was still quite sound.

"Savvy Jack" aka Brian Austin did some ballistic testing with semi balloon head vs solid head brass using blackpowder and got a decent lift in velocity for the older style cases - we surmised maybe had something to do with the shape of the primer pocket and swirl effect of the flame into centre of the charge rather than pushing at the bottom - who knows ? but maybe those old guys did?

[BoBSavage]

Dose anyone know when they stopped making black powder 45 colt, 44-40 cartridges?

Looking back at what catalogs I can find, it appears that;

Originally,
Winchester stopped offering the 44-40 black powder cartridge (K4406T) in 1933.
Winchester does not offer the 45 Colt black powder cartridge in the 1938 catalog.
UMC may have stopped offering the 45 Colt black powder loads by 1938 as well.

The International Cartridge Collector's website has some catalogs available for viewing.
https://cartridgecollectors.org/ammunition-catalogs