LilGun, 30-30, Berry Bullets, Pistol Primers

[1006]

I have read about LilGun extensively, and thought some of the other readers might be interested in my pursuit of a 30-30 load with LilGun. Anyway, It seemed to work pretty well.

The components were:
LilGun, Wolf Large Pistol Primers, Berry Bullets 150 grain 30-30, Federal Cases.

I started at 17 grains of powder, and ended with 20.0 grains. The 17 grain load seemed too light and I did not measure it. I jumped ahead straight to 20 grains after considering the published 350 Legend and 300Blk loads.

Velocity at 20.0 grains equaled 2101fps on a 90 degree day with a Standard Deviation of 20—a little faster than desired. 5 Shots were fired.

I was hoping for 1900fps, from my 20 inch barrel.

All pressure indications were showing the load could be increased, but the Berry Bullet might fly apart above its recommended maximum velocity.

I will be doing some accuracy shooting later.

I wanted to comment on the reputation LilGun has for running “hot”, and for being position sensitive. Generally, in my use of it in the 300BLK and the 30-30, neither has been true, but there is a caveat: do not push to the max load possible if you do not want it to get hot. My 300BLK does get hot faster with this powder-if I push it faster than any other powder can go. IE: Speer loading data shows 20 to 21 grains delivering 2060 to 2150 fps in the 300BLK. I only load 17.2 and get 2000fps in my gun, and the barrel does not get excessively hot.

I tried pointing my 30-30 up or down before each shot and the SD was 20. I am not seeing any significant position sensitivity.

I have read too many respected forum members’ writings not to believe that these problems can exist, they just have not, at this point for me. These same posts are why I am not going to search for a max load.

[P Flados]

One thing I do not like about Lil Gun is that I have had problems with Quickload underpredicting velocity and overpredicting pressure as compared to published loads.

The standard guidance is to "benchmark" the powder by adjusting the burn rate factor (Ba) to get the measured velocity. I did just that and got the results below.

I feel that the predicted pressures are higher than actual. When I "benchmarked" a published 300 BO Lil Gun load, I found predicted pressures from 10% to 16% above measured values.

If you use the above to evaluate your 20 gr load, you may be slightly over (43,000 to 46,000 psi best guess) the 42,000 psi SAAMI limit. Note that most guns chambered for the 30-30 are also chambered for higher pressure rounds such as 375 Win (55,000 psi).

Cartridge          : .30-30 Win. (SAAMI)
Bullet             : .309, 150, LEE C309-150-F
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.500 inch = 63.50 mm
Barrel Length      : 20.0 inch = 508.0 mm
Powder             : Hodgdon Lil'Gun (Ba adjusted to 1.3 to get mesured velocity at 20 gr charge) 

CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms
-10.5   49    17.00   1910    1215   36505   3433    100.0    1.304  ! Near Maximum !
-09.5   49    17.20   1923    1232   37407   3465    100.0    1.291  ! Near Maximum !
-08.4   50    17.40   1937    1249   38322   3496    100.0    1.278  ! Near Maximum !
-07.4   50    17.60   1950    1266   39251   3527    100.0    1.266  ! Near Maximum !
-06.3   51    17.80   1963    1283   40194   3558    100.0    1.254  ! Near Maximum !
-05.3   52    18.00   1976    1300   41150   3589    100.0    1.242  ! Near Maximum !
-04.2   52    18.20   1989    1317   42120   3619    100.0    1.230  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-03.2   53    18.40   2002    1334   43105   3650    100.0    1.218  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-02.1   53    18.60   2014    1351   44103   3680    100.0    1.207  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-01.1   54    18.80   2027    1369   45117   3711    100.0    1.196  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.0   55    19.00   2040    1386   46144   3741    100.0    1.185  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+01.1   55    19.20   2052    1403   47187   3771    100.0    1.175  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.1   56    19.40   2065    1420   48244   3801    100.0    1.164  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+03.2   56    19.60   2077    1437   49317   3831    100.0    1.154  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.2   57    19.80   2090    1454   50405   3861    100.0    1.144  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+05.3   57    20.00   2102    1472   51508   3890    100.0    1.134  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

[1006]

The predicted pressures are higher than actual, and velocity is actually lower than predicted.

I always figure the published data is accurate in terms of pressure, but I am never sure what velocity I will get until I fire it. Since my load is not published, I am relying on a combination of experience, load data from similar sized cartridges, and physical evidence of pressure in the fired cases.

LilGun seems (based on what other sources say) to come to full pressure in a delayed fashion and stay at full pressure for a longer period of time. When I fired the 20 grain 30-30 load, I expected my Pistol primer to be pushed out slightly, but is was not, which has me thinking the cartridge base had time to push back against the bolt face before full pressure was achieved.

I have been using pistol primers in low pressure rifle calibers -lever guns, and 300BLK subs- for a long time and the primer is normally pushed out just a little during firing.

Also, I have already reloaded the brass I used. After full length resizing, there is no sign of brass fatigue/stretching at the base.

[dverna]

Looking forward to your accuracy results. I have 3 lbs of Lil'Gun I bought for a project and sold the gun so I have no use for it.

[uscra112]

FWIW - it's been some years now since I was shooting Lil-Gun in my Hornet and 2R Lovells. I do not recall seeing any great difference between actual MV and Quickload predictions. Not having any pressure equipment I can't comment on that.

[technojock]

FWIW - it's been some years now since I was shooting Lil-Gun in my Hornet and 2R Lovells. .

I found that with Lil-Gun loads in my K-Hornet the barrel would get twice as hot in a 5 shot group than with any other powder I used. I traded off the rest of what I had left and haven't looked back. I now use 4227 and 2400 for jacketed loads and Unique or Red Dot for most of my cast loads.

Tony

[uscra112]

There's a very simple explanation for the barrel-heating phenomenon. Lil-Gun displays a "fat tail" to the pressure-time curve. So some of it is still burning farther down from the breech than other powders. It's entirely benign, except for revolvers where it contributes to erosion of the top-strap. Wasn't a consideration when it was developed, since it was meant for .410 shotguns.

This "fat tail" is why you get more velocity for the same peak pressure. Ultimately, velocity is related to the area under the curve, not the peak pressure. Lil'Gun keeps pushing longer but at lower pressure. Exactly what you want for a long barrel, not so much for a pistol. My K-Hornet is a 14 inch Contender, and the Lovells are all full-length rifles.

I'd gladly have traded for that Lil'Gun. In practice, I don't fire volleys at woodchucks, being a single-shot kinda guy. One shot one kill. Regulate the load for best accuracy from a cold barrel.

[1006]

First 100 yard group attempt.
Optic used: 4moa red dot.
88 degree day
Mossberg 472, 20 inch Micro Groove barrel
BerryBullets 150 grain 30-30-swagged copper plated lead.
Wolf Pistol Primer
Federal cases
20 grains of LilGun is the only group fired for accuracy.
5 shots=3.4 inch group
Best 4 out of 5 =2.2 inch group.

I think the load works, just need a traditional scope.



5 shots fired for data.
20 grains produced 2101 fps with an SD of 20.
19 grains produced 2008 fps with an SD of 25.
18 grains produced 1912 fps with an SD of 15.

[1006]

I edited my post regarding Quickload. It seems to predict more than actual pressure and more than actual velocity-in this case.

[1006]

Well, I never did get an outstanding group with LilGun and the Berry 150 grain 30-30 Bullet.
I shot some this morning and concluded that the problem is most likely the bullet’s diameter of .308 and the Marlin Microgroove Barrel used on the Mossberg 472–assuming that the Mossberg used barrels supplied by Marlin. Generally: the slower the velocity of my load, the better the group looked to me.

Conditions at the range were: 86 degrees and no wind. I shot at 100yards off of a rest at a shooting table with a 4x Scope.

The pics show the group size of all five shots with the best 4 out of five group under it. I only fired 4 shots with 20.0 LilGun. I shot four seperate groups using 10.0 HS-6, 20.0 LilGun, 17.0 Alliant 2400, and 18.0 LilGun. Wolf Pistol Primers used on all loads except with 2400 powder.

The link should save some space and show the pics.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/pv6kz4yybrtjLguW6

[uscra112]

For my .30-30 Microgroove Marlin, .311 would be the right size. A .308 bullet would shoot patterns no matter what the powder was.

[1006]

I think that is what is happening. Next time out, I am going to run the same loads through a new Ruger/Marlin 336. It has standard rifling.

[uscra112]

A worthy plan.

[1006]

I went out today and ran all of my loads through my new Ruger-Marlin. Accuracy was about the same when fired in the Marlin as it was in the Mossberg 472–for every load.

My conclusion is that I really have not learned much other than the bottom line: LilGun and Alliant 2400 did not work for me in either of my 30/30’s. I was hoping LilGun or 2400 would perform as well in the 30/30 as they have for me in 300BLK-using the same bullet (Berry 150 FN).

The one load that did perform well was 10.0grains of HS-6, yielding 1280fps and decent 50 yard plinking accuracy. As an aside: 8.5 HS-6 with the same bullet in the 300BLK produces 1350fps.

Pressures have been safe with my supply of Wolf Large Pistol Primers all the way up to 20.0 grains/2100fps. However, best SDs we’re at 18.0grains/1900fps, and that was my velocity goal.

[Larry Gibson]

For 1900 fps you'll need a GC'd bullet.