Accuracy at low W231 charges for 45 ACP?

[TomTA]

I'm a new member; new to pistol reloading, and new to cast boolits. I don't cast, as I've already got way more projects than time, and my much-abused brain doesn't need the lead fumes. I buy ready-made cast bullets for 9mm, 45 acp, and 45 LC.

When loading "powder-puff" loads, is there a negative effect on accuracy as you reduce charges? My hands are pretty arthritic, and full-power 45 loads are pretty punishing. I can get my Tanfoglio Witness Match in 45 acp to cycle reliably with 4.0 grains of W231 under 185 LSWC; I need a little more to cycle 160 LSWC, and less for 220 RN/FP. Either way, I can't get anything I'd consider acceptable accuracy. For a few loads (very few!) I'll get a nice cloverleaf of a few shots (50' sandbagged, iron sights), but then a flyer to open it up to 3 or 4". Most loads give dispersed groups running about 3"-4" at 50'.

Are my troubles caused by the low case fill? If the velocity is too low is it simply a matter of not stabilizing the bullet? Is it a powder-positioning issue? I've raised powder charges .1 grain at a time, and am now up to 5.3 gr W231 with no apparent trend towards better groups.

Thanks in advance for any insights....

[45DUDE]

About 90% of people would be happy to have your problem. I have one of my 1911's set up for 3.5 of Bullseye with a 200 gr. H&G 68 and my target 1911 set up for 4.5 of Bullseye with a 185-200gr.

[JimB..]

So many things to check when you’re chasing 1” at 50’.

Is your charge really consistent from case to case?
Is the OAL really consistent from cartridge to cartridge?
Have you sorted the bullets by weight before loading them?
Have you slugged the barrel and are your bullets .002 larger than the groove diameter?
Have you measure the bullets, are they the right size and are they round?
Have you pulled down a few loaded rounds and measured the diameter of the bullet to ensure that you aren’t reducing the diameter during loading?

Folks will jump in with more but I’ll end with the truism that every gun likes what it likes and dislikes what it dislikes, finding a good load isn’t hard but finding a great load takes committment.

[scattershot]

I haven’t started experimenting with 231 yet, but I will say that the most accurate .45ACP load I have ever shot was 4.2 grains of Bullseye with a 200 grain H&G #68 SWC. Cycled fine in my 1911s.

[fc60]

Greetings,

Your description of the groups suggest bad bullets.

Buying commercial cast bullets is a "crap shoot". Once the bullet is sized and greased most of the bullet defects are concealed.

Try this. Examine each bullet carefully with a magnifier. Pay close attention to how the base is formed. Any nicks or dings is cause for rejection.

Another test is to load jacketed bullets of match quality. Should the fliers persist, then you need to scrutinize your loading process very closely.

Cheers,

Dave

[Martin Luber]

Is the gun really precise and accurate? Seems to be the common variable here.

231/hp38 is not a good choice for 160; 185 depends on bearing length and seating depth ( ie a h&g 68 style vs a h&g 130) for that powder to work. Expander sizes are important good luck

[45_Colt]

These pistols should have polygonal rifling. May need to play a bit with overall boolit diameter and/or length to get it to shoot good with cast. Glocks also have polygonal rifling, a search for what folks do for them should help with this pistol.

45_Colt

[TomTA]

Thanks for the insight on the polygonal rifling; I didn't realize the Tanfoglio had that. I've read conflicting opinions on how much of an issue that is. I ran some of the same loads that were pretty ugly in the Tanfoglio through another pistol and they were markedly better (very small sample, so it might be random. We'll see.).

[TomTA]

I haven’t started experimenting with 231 yet, but I will say that the most accurate .45ACP load I have ever shot was 4.2 grains of Bullseye with a 200 grain H&G #68 SWC. Cycled fine in my 1911s.

Thanks for the suggestion of the Bullseye. I have an old square metal can of Bullseye I got at an estate sale, and loaded some rounds with that. Based on first impressions it seems to hold more promise.

[TomTA]

Expander sizes are important good luck

I bell the case just enough (with Dillon powder drop funnel) to get the boolit in and seated without damage, and then crimp in a separate station. Is there some other alternative that might be better?

[TomTA]

Greetings,

Buying commercial cast bullets is a "crap shoot". Once the bullet is sized and greased most of the bullet defects are concealed.

I've examined them closely; they seem consistently round and sized, with no appreciable dings (but with coated bullets the coating may hide a lot of sins). I ran some of the same loads through my Pardini and things looked markedly better. I think between that and the Tanfoglio improvement using some untested initial Bullseye loads it may have been a combination of issues.

[chriskendziora]

If you're using coated bullets the polygonal rifling I don't belive will matter. Have you slugged that barrel too see what size it is vs the bullet size? Those guns are supposed to be tack drivers!

Bullseye or 700x may be you're friend for light loads. I run 4.7gr of 700x with a 200gr cast. Remember we need to get the bullets base to obturate to bore diameter to get accuracy via powder charge.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

[1006]

All you can do is experiment. I do not recall anyone finding W231 to be particularly inaccurate, or inconsistent. Bullseye seems to be the most popular for powder in the 45. If you are buying your bullets, I buy mine too, I have found the traditional wax lubed to be be the most accurate for light target loads. My experience with 45ACP has come from only one style gun: a 1911 with a barrel made with a 1 in 16 twist and conventional rifling.

All that said, I think your loads are too light. I would try 5.0 W231 with the 160 and 185 , 4.5 with the 220, and a light taper crimp.

[charlie b]

First, what kind of groups do you get with factory loads? If not good, then you have a gun or shooter issue.

If those are good then what about reloads with jacketed bullets? If not good, then you have a reloading issue.

If they are good then at least you know it is a cast bullet issue. Does the barrel have a throat, ie, does the 'rifling' section have a taper at the beginning or is there just the chamber mouth and then rifling? My HK is that way and it hates cast, especially powder coated. The sharp edge strips off the PC and shaves a bit of lead when fired.

If yours is throated then I would look to bullet sizes. I would bet yours needs slightly oversize bullets to work well, maybe .357 vs .355.

Change one thing at a time. Then at least you can narrow down where the problem is.

[slughammer]

.....Most loads give dispersed groups running about 3"-4" at 50'.

Are my troubles caused by the low case fill? If the velocity is too low is it simply a matter of not stabilizing the bullet? Is it a powder-positioning issue? I've raised powder charges .1 grain at a time, and am now up to 5.3 gr W231 with no apparent trend towards better groups.

Thanks in advance for any insights....

I don't think your problems are case fill, powder positioning or stabilization....Maybe the gun is only capable of 3-4" at 50ft.

I would recommend getting a 500 count box of 200gr SWC. Make sure they are a clone of the HG68 design. Load to 1.25" OAL with a charge of 4.5gr of W231. I used this load for falling plate matches. It gave consistent velocities of 750fps over the chronograph and repeatable 10 shot groups of 1.5" at 25 yards.

The 200gr HG 68 design has a proven track record of excellent accuracy in 45acp. W231 is a fine powder for these boolits.

FYI Just about any powder got me the same accuracy results with this boolit. I tested half a dozen powders at 50 yards. Some powders I saw wild swings over the chronograph, but all shot 10 shot 4" groups out of my 1911. (Dont go chasing magic powders).

Regards - Slughammer

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[TomTA]

Well, it seems that basic stupidity explains a good portion of my problem. I needed a decent crimp to get the cartridges to cycle. If I crimped while seating I was getting a good bit of the coating scraped off by the case mouth as it was forced in. I therefore dutifully used my Lee factory crimp die in a separate step to crimp the cartridges down to .469 (least crimp that feeds reliably). This was apparently swaging the bullets down far enough (probably .449 or so, assuming .010 brass thickness) that I wasn't getting a good bore fit. Time to start from scratch trying to develop a good load using a separate seating die (with stem removed) to crimp.

[Daver7]

Sounds like your onto something. WhenI was shooting Bull Eye I used 231 with a little over 4 grains of powder behind my cast 200 SWC.
I always seated and crimped in separate operations.