How soon after WQ'ing and/or oven treating do we size - antimony?

[huntinlever]

I've shot thousands of WQ'd cast bullet over the years. The BHN of recovered bullets [shot at 2900 fps out of a 31" barrel) remained close the BHN of those bullets before shooting them. Those bullets were sized down .004 - .006" by the bore and lube. I've not found any change in BHN with any AC'd or WQ'd bullets over the years. I generally don't size down more than .002 - .003 with any cast bullets in a single sizing regardless of AC'd or WQ'd.

To answer the OPs original quest; I don't size WQ'd bullets until at least 48 hours after casting. With AC'd bullets I don't size them until after 10 - 14 days have elapsed. That is, of course with ternary or quadra alloyed bullets so the hardening process can have time to complete. I don't WQ or HT binary cast bullets of lead/tin alloy for obvious reasons. I also haven't done much with WQ'd lead/antimony alloy in many years other than to say They also weren't sized for some time after casting.

Re-reading this, I just want to make sure I am understanding you properly, Larry. Presume water quenching one way or the other. However we get to the hardness, whether it's directly quenched from the casting mold or oven-treated, then quenched: (1) you don't worry about work softening, so see no harm in sizing even after oven heating and quenching - i.e., you wait for the hardening process to complete, but are not worried about the surface work softening? So it might be something like this:

1. cast
2. air cool
3. oven-treat
4. quench in ice water
5. rest 2 days for hardening maturation
6. size and seat gas checks
7. lubrisize
8. wait two weeks
9. load and shoot?

[414gates]

For the OP, it doesn't matter when you size. The difference in hardness between as-cast and weeks old bullets is not detrimental to sizing, so size whenever. Lead is not going to expand by itself over time.

Cast bullets can be heat treated to increase their hardness providing your alloy has 2% or more antimony present. To heat treat your bullets: Cast your bullets in the normal manner, saving several scrap bullets. Size using RCBS 2 Lube. WASH OFF. Place several scrap bullets on a pan in your oven at 450 degrees and increase the temperature until the bullets start to melt or slump. Be sure to use an accurate oven thermometer and a pan that will not be used again for food. Once the bullets start to melt or slump, back off the temperature about 10 degrees and slide in your first batch of good bullets. Leave these in the oven for 1 hour. Remove the bullets from the oven and plunge them into cool water. Allow them to cool thoroughly. When you are ready to lubricate, install a Lyman sizing die .001" larger than the one used to initially size them, OR Tumble lube with Alox. This will prevent the sides of the bullets from work-softening from contact with the sizing die. Next apply gas checks if required and lubricate. BULLETS WILL TAKE 2 WEEKS TO FULLY HARDEN. These are now ready for loading.

Lead alloys age harden to final hardness.

Lead alloys cannot be quenched to achieve final hardness. What applies to steel does not apply at all to lead alloys.

The type and percentage of alloy and time alone determines the final hardness.

Cooling the alloy from cast can lessen the overall age hardening time.

At the end a period of time, around two weeks, irrespective of wether the bullets were quenched in ice or annealed in fire, they will all achieve the same final hardness if cast from the same alloy.

You can make the process as complicated as you wish, you will not increase the final hardness beyond which the type and percentage of alloys permit.

[TD1886]

Let me add something about the hardening of the bullet from WQing or ACing; many mistakenly believe this hardening process just hardens the exterior of the bullet [as in case hardening iron or steel] so as to better grip the rifling. This is not true. WQing or HTing cast bullets hardens the bullet all the way through the bullet. I have not found sizing has any measurable affect of the BHN of such bullets when they are allowed sufficient time for the hardening process to complete. I have not been able to find any indication that "work softening" of the of the bullet from sizing or even shooting lessons the desired effect of the hardening.

I've never thought bullets water quenched didn't harden all the way through. Some people have tried ways to brinell test them by cutting the bullet in half length wise and testing the interior. Thing is how much did sectioning the bullet alter it's hardness? Another thing a harden bullet seems to be hard all the way through when it smacks into something like dirt, animal tissue, or wood. Look at Linotype bullets. They shatter like chalk when hitting something hard. Seems they are the same hardness all the way through.

[TD1886]

I have never seen, meassured bullets growing in size, after sizing.

But a die marked .429" can produce sized bullet that are larger. The harder the alloy, the larger the finished bullet. As much as .002" difference between alloys.

Air cooled tin alloy ullets will get softer over years. Heat treated remain the same.

Doing your own testing is the only way to know.

First sizing is Lee die. https://www.thehighroad.org/index.ph...-minimum.3749/

I know a guy that cast and sized bullets for a 45 Colt. He done everything the proper way. He loaded and shot some of them. Then put them away kind of forgot about them. Dug them out one day to shoot the rest of them and none of the cartridges would fit in the chamber. Go figure. Only think I can think of is that he didn't wait long enough for them to age harden.

[243winxb]

https://www.totalmateria.com/page.as...site=ktn&NM=88

Some good info . Heat Treating of Lead and Lead Alloys.

Another- https://patents.google.com/patent/US5464487A/en

EXAMPLE

38 caliber swaged wrought bullets manufactured by Bull-X, Inc. were heat treated in an open air furnace at about 450° F. for the times set forth below and were then promptly quenched in water at ambient temperature. Following quenching, the Brinell hardnesses of at least 25 of the bullet samples were tested with a Rockwell machine in accordance with ASTM Standard E10-84 using a 100 kg load and an M scale ball of 6.35 mm diameter. The duration of the heating and the Brinell hardness readings were as follows:

______________________________________
Heating Time Brinell Hardness (min.) (range)
______________________________________

5 minutes19.6-21.3
10 25.5-28
20 24.3-25.5
30 28-29
______________________________________
After 8 days, 1 1/2 months and 2 months, hardness tests were again performed on these samples and these tests revealed that the hardness was essentially unchanged.

At least 25 of the samples which were heated for 5 and/or 10 minutes and then quenched as described above also were sectioned, ground, polished and hardness tested both at the surface and the core. These tests revealed that the hardness was essentially uniform throughout.

The samples which had been hardened as described were also analyzed for metal content and had the following metal content:

______________________________________
metal wt. %
______________________________________

Copper 0.038
Arsenic 0.16
Antimony
3.0
Tin 0.25
Zinc 0.0001
Cadmium 0.0001
Nickel <.0001
Bismuth 0.018
Silver 0.0038
Tellurium
0.0015
Sulfur 0.0005
Iron <.0001
Lead Balance
______________________________________
It can be seen from the above example that the hardened swaged wrought bullets of the present invention are capable of use in their unjacketed form with ammunition loads of substantially higher muzzle velocities exceeding 900 fps, and in loads having the power factor and bullet weights previously discussed without unacceptable leading. Thus, the cost of jacketing is avoided as well as cost of inclusion of tin or increased levels of antimony.

It will be understood that the preferred embodiment of the present invention which has been described is merely illustrative of the principles of the present invention. Numerous modifications may be made by those skilled in the art without departing from the true spirit and scope of the invention.

[TD1886]

https://www.totalmateria.com/page.as...site=ktn&NM=88

Some good info . Heat Treating of Lead and Lead Alloys.

Another- https://patents.google.com/patent/US5464487A/en

EXAMPLE

38 caliber swaged wrought bullets manufactured by Bull-X, Inc. were heat treated in an open air furnace at about 450° F. for the times set forth below and were then promptly quenched in water at ambient temperature. Following quenching, the Brinell hardnesses of at least 25 of the bullet samples were tested with a Rockwell machine in accordance with ASTM Standard E10-84 using a 100 kg load and an M scale ball of 6.35 mm diameter. The duration of the heating and the Brinell hardness readings were as follows:

______________________________________
Heating Time Brinell Hardness (min.) (range)
______________________________________

5 minutes19.6-21.3
10 25.5-28
20 24.3-25.5
30 28-29
______________________________________
After 8 days, 1 1/2 months and 2 months, hardness tests were again performed on these samples and these tests revealed that the hardness was essentially unchanged.

At least 25 of the samples which were heated for 5 and/or 10 minutes and then quenched as described above also were sectioned, ground, polished and hardness tested both at the surface and the core. These tests revealed that the hardness was essentially uniform throughout.

The samples which had been hardened as described were also analyzed for metal content and had the following metal content:

______________________________________
metal wt. %
______________________________________

Copper 0.038
Arsenic 0.16
Antimony
3.0
Tin 0.25
Zinc 0.0001
Cadmium 0.0001
Nickel <.0001
Bismuth 0.018
Silver 0.0038
Tellurium
0.0015
Sulfur 0.0005
Iron <.0001
Lead Balance
______________________________________
It can be seen from the above example that the hardened swaged wrought bullets of the present invention are capable of use in their unjacketed form with ammunition loads of substantially higher muzzle velocities exceeding 900 fps, and in loads having the power factor and bullet weights previously discussed without unacceptable leading. Thus, the cost of jacketing is avoided as well as cost of inclusion of tin or increased levels of antimony.

It will be understood that the preferred embodiment of the present invention which has been described is merely illustrative of the principles of the present invention. Numerous modifications may be made by those skilled in the art without departing from the true spirit and scope of the invention.

If you take a rod of pure lead, say 3/8 inch diameter 12 inches long and bend it back and forth in the middle that middle section will harden. It work hardens.

[huntinlever]

I know a guy that cast and sized bullets for a 45 Colt. He done everything the proper way. He loaded and shot some of them. Then put them away kind of forgot about them. Dug them out one day to shoot the rest of them and none of the cartridges would fit in the chamber. Go figure. Only think I can think of is that he didn't wait long enough for them to age harden.

TD, maybe it was you I was referring to, whose friend couldn't fit the bullets in his handgun, as he'd sized right away - and they expanded, some?

[TD1886]

TD, maybe it was you I was referring to, whose friend couldn't fit the bullets in his handgun, as he'd sized right away - and they expanded, some?

I believe it was Paul.

[huntinlever]

I believe it was Paul.

Great, thanks.

[poppy42]

Ya know I didn’t have a clue what the heck WQ’ing was! Gotta love made up acronyms!