Is there a point to water dropping cast ?

[TD1886]

What BHN does the pure lead harden to?

It's not that kind of hardening, but you may be able to measure it. Say you have a strip of lead 3/4 inch wide, 1/4 inch thick, and a foot long. If you bend it in the middle back and forth that lead near the bend will harden. I would say the terminology for it would be work hardening. In a sense it's like brass.

[jsizemore]

Hold on. We have a member that says we can harden pure lead. I assume he means we don't have to do it by alloying. I'd like to hear the process. It may be it will harden but not a great amount. The way we express hardness is with "BHN". You may not care but I'd like to know another alternative in case I only have pure lead. I'm here to learn, not to be ignorant of other options.

[longbow]

Antimonial lead alloys most certainly do harden by water dropping or oven heat treating and quenching. They may age harden further but they do harden significantly by quenching when hot out of the mould or oven heat treating to just below melting then quenching.

You are correct that pure lead cannot be heat treated to harden. Pure lead will work harden a small amount.

Longbow

[TD1886]

Hold on. We have a member that says we can harden pure lead. I assume he means we don't have to do it by alloying. I'd like to hear the process. It may be it will harden but not a great amount. The way we express hardness is with "BHN". You may not care but I'd like to know another alternative in case I only have pure lead. I'm here to learn, not to be ignorant of other options.

I just explained it, it work hardens, which is of no use to us.

[Dusty Bannister]

You will probably find that pure lead will work harden, and then age soften again. I believe this was mentioned in a thread or an article about commercial swaged cores for jacketed bullets when the core wire is made or the core is cut and before seating in the jacket.

[Kosh75287]

MY casting skills are somewhat below average, but I tend to always cast from the mould into a bucket of cold water. I do it more as a time-saving maneuver than anything else, but if quenching also hardens the projectiles, I have no objection. None of the alloys I use are so hard an extra half-unit to single unit on the BHN scale will do anything but good things.

[jsizemore]

I just explained it, it work hardens, which is of no use to us.

That's what I was waiting to hear. I was typing my post when you sent yours.

[414gates]

Just to set the record streight, by studies, publications and my own split bullet testing, hard alloys, water dropped out of the mould, add a .004 to .006 depth of hardness to the bullet surface.

For bullet casting and shooting purposes, that few thou of surface layer is not what is generally understood as the BHN of the lead.

BHN cannot be added to a lead alloy by quenching it immediately after casting.

BHN does increase after measuring at cast time, and two weeks later, of a lead alloy.

Hold on. We have a member that says we can harden pure lead. I assume he means we don't have to do it by alloying. I'd like to hear the process. It may be it will harden but not a great amount.

The member who is stating that pure lead can harden may be correct in some abstract scientific sense but for bullet casting, we can't make the practical BHN of pure lead go up by any means, other than alloying it.

[popper]

Load alloy with > 2% Sb WILL get higher BHN with water dropping in COLD (ice) water. As will allow faster hardening. I WD out of the oven when PCing, AFTER 1/2 hr @ 400F. A 10-15 min oven bake will NOT work. 1-2% Sb will eventually harden a bit, not very much, Sn=Sb works better at that low %. WD in ice water works when dropped from the mold, same % rules as above. I size and load a within a couple days after WD, even WD takes a couple days to 'cure' properly.

[Gobeyond]

Start citing your sources. Just sounds like opinions and sounds like an on going difference of opinion.

Take a hydraulic press and see if a WD bullet has anymore resistance, or a hammer. As much as some say they harden there would be a big difference. And do a hardness test. Back up you opinions with evidence. Try a hammer on Lyman #2 there should be a big difference than pure lead or a light alloy. Super hard or foundry type are def. harder. Get your metallurgist and books and articles out here. Be scientific, how do you know they are harder?

[longbow]

Page 18

http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/Cla...tBullets-s.pdf


http://www.lasc.us/heattreat.htm


Page 31

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_textonly2.pdf


https://forum.castbulletassoc.org/th...-lead-bullets/


https://thisoldrifle.com/shooting/al...oyhardness.pdf

[Hannibal]

Start citing your sources. Just sounds like opinions and sounds like an on going difference of opinion.

Take a hydraulic press and see if a WD bullet has anymore resistance, or a hammer. As much as some say they harden there would be a big difference. And do a hardness test. Back up you opinions with evidence. Try a hammer on Lyman #2 there should be a big difference than pure lead or a light alloy. Super hard or foundry type are def. harder. Get your metallurgist and books and articles out here. Be scientific, how do you know they are harder?

Scientific? By striking a bullet with a hammer?

I'll just stop right there.....

How about YOU provide some documentation showing lead alloys can not be hardened by water quenching? And before you start in again with your definition of science, where is smacking a bullet with a hammer considered a scientific test? If you're going to set standards then use established standards.

[Rickf1985]

Actually putting two bullets head to head in a vice will tell you which is the harder bullet. Or putting a chunk of lead in a press with a steel ball on top and measuring the pressure and dent size will give exact comparisons of hardness. That is exactly how hardness is measured with testers.

Hitting with a hammer might be tough to tell since chances of two hammer swings being exactly the same are slim.

[schutzen-jager]

personally used the vise method years ago - bullets cast from same pot, temperature, + mold - multiple times + the water dropped alloy ones very definitely much harder - never tried it with pure lead -

[GONRA]

Like Kos75297 - GONRA always casts into cold water.

[Budzilla 19]

Water drop pistol slugs straight out the mold. Pc, then size and load.
Rifle slugs? Well, it gets a bit more complex. Cast the slugs, Lee 312-155 2r, drop from the mold onto a folded cloth. Size to .310”, install gas check, powdercoat, heat-treat while curing powder coat, 425*f for one hour, then splash in ice water! Re-size to .310”, wait a week, load them to jacketed velocities! Alloy is 50/50 WW/ pure with 2% Sn. Next, 92-6-2 heat treated! I love this stuff!! As always, just my opinions.


Oh, I almost forgot, I don’t own a hardness tester either.

[Hannibal]

A hardness tester will give you a reference point if you're interested in such things. Seems kinda ridiculous to me to get picky about diameter, case prep, powder charge, lubes, powder coat techniques and seating depth yet have no idea about the hardness of the alloy you're using but to each his own.

And no, I don't like variations of a smash test. Doesn't tell you anything that you didn't already anticipate.

[Budzilla 19]

Well, seems I forgot some information in my last post! Hannibal, thank you for jogging my memory. When I said I didn’t own a hardiness tester, I guess I should have also mentioned that a good friend DOES own a hardness tester and tested the alloy in question. ( I cant recall the exact number right now, it’s written down in the casting book in the shop). After much reading on this wonderful site, I guess I just “ stumbled”upon this combination of alloy,and it works wonderful!
So, sorry for the omission of information.
Be safe out there.

[fredj338]

If you PC, you destroy any gain of water dropping out of the mold.

[Budzilla 19]

fredj338, I agree that when you pc, you lose any gain in hardness you may have gained from water drop.