Cutoff for the rapture.

[Alabama358]

But, Jesus told one of the men also being crucified with him "“Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise”. He said "today"....not some time later.

I think if you move the comma over one word so that it falls after the word Today and not you... it is easier to understand

[Dom]

You are not saved by works. Your are saved by believing in Jesus Christ as lord & savior. Jesus died & shed his blood to cover our sins. No amount of works will save. Only believing in Jesus .

[Rizzo]

I think if you move the comma over one word so that it falls after the word Today and not you... it is easier to understand

The passage was written correctly and the message is clear.
See below:
Luke 23:43
New International Version
Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

New Living Translation
And Jesus replied, “I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

English Standard Version
And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Berean Standard Bible
And Jesus said to him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

Berean Literal Bible
And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

King James Bible
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

New King James Version
And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

But, if you change the punctuation, the meaning gets changed.
Do so if you'd like to if that makes it easier for you to understand but the meaning would be wrong.
Also, as you should know, changing what is in the Bible by adding, deleting or I would also say changing the punctuation, which would change the meaning, is a big no-no with God and has some bad ramifications.

Jus' sayin'

[Good Cheer]

That could take anyone to a profitable study of where Jesus was and what He was doing for three days if the thief would be with Him in paradise on the first.

Including this link just for the referenced verses.
https://www.christianity.com/jesus/d...into-hell.html

[Alabama358]

The passage was written correctly and the message is clear.

Yes in deed Mr. Rizzo the message is clear, maybe the punctuation made it confusing for you...
1- Because of his belief he was forgiven of his sins and would not be held to account (punished) for them. "the Gift of Salvation"
2- He was going to Paradise/Heaven and he wasn't being reincarnated as a dung beetle or an angry little girl or anything else

A Gift of Salvation and straight to heaven. Neither of which you believe

But, if you change the punctuation, the meaning gets changed.
Do so if you'd like to if that makes it easier for you to understand but the meaning would be wrong

You are an interesting character...
You believe in Jesus but not his teachings,
You believe in the Bible except the parts that go against your feelings
You believe in reincarnation although you didn't stipulate how many times that you have to take the ride before you get to heaven which pretty much goes against everything from Genesis to Revelation.

The Jews have the Talmud
The Mormons have the book of Mormon
The Muzzies have the quran
Buddhism has the Lotus Sutra

Where did you get your Hybrid Christian Doctrine, is there a book or a church or is this just a compilation of your feelings.

Also, as you should know, changing what is in the Bible by adding, deleting or I would also say changing the punctuation, which would change the meaning, is a big no-no with God and has some bad ramifications.

You must be referring to the warnings in Deuteronomy 4:2 or Proverbs 30:5-6 or maybe Revelation 22:18-19

I am pretty certain that it was not talking about punctuation seeing that Chapters, verses and Punctuation wasn't added until the 1500s.
"The earliest manuscripts had negligible punctuation and breathing marks. The manuscripts also lacked word spacing, so words, sentences, and paragraphs would be a continuous string of letters (scriptio continua), often with line breaks in the middle of words."

I think the big no-no that you refer to in the above stated chapters and verses warn against adding stuff in like "Reincarnation" or taking stuff out like "The remission of Sins" and probably not so much about punctuation or grammar

Jus' sayin'

It sounds cute....but what exactly are you Jus' sayin'? On 2nd thought don't answer that

[.429&H110]

"In my father's house there are many mansions..."

"In the beginning God created the Heavens..."

We each have a unique individual relationship with how we know God.
Know God's Sovereignty.
We study our Infinite God, try to finitely define Him, we cannot. He Is.
Closest as I can come: God is Love.
My Savior said to evangelize all the world!

Woe to him that believes himself God
trying to fill their empty with the world's distractions
and bent on destroying America for fun and profit.
That is the lost soul I am looking for to save.
So that we can get to Matthew 24
"...and then the end shall come."
Soon.

[Alabama358]

"In my father's house there are many mansions..."

"In the beginning God created the Heavens..."

We each have a unique individual relationship with how we know God.
Know God's Sovereignty.
We study our Infinite God, try to finitely define Him, we cannot. He Is.
Closest as I can come: God is Love.
My Savior said to evangelize all the world!

Woe to him that believes himself God
trying to fill their empty with the world's distractions
and bent on destroying America for fun and profit.
That is the lost soul I am looking for to save.
So that we can get to Matthew 24
"...and then the end shall come."
Soon.

.429
I have had this conversation even with family members and told them to use caution not to try to create GOD in their image.
Folks say for example, I know the bible says this, that or the other but I can't believe that GOD would really do that or be that mean.
And that is where I have to step in and say, your feelings are really irreverent... When you say I know GOD's word says one thing but I don't feel that way. In essence you are down playing The Almighty's sovereignty and trying to create him in your own image.

[Good Cheer]

A presentation on this topic by Dr. Michael Heiser.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yT-uyHaApMU

[ioon44]

Good Cheer thanks for posting the late Dr. Michael Heiser's teachings, always a blessing to listen to him teach.

"cut off for the rapture", the words cut off should be sobering, if a person is not fully trusting in the Grace of Jesus Christ and his blood sacrifice on the cross, then one will be cut off.

All my hope is based on Jesus Christ's Blood and Righteous, nothing of my own which is filthy rags.

[Good Cheer]

"In my father's house there are many mansions..."

"In the beginning God created the Heavens..."

We each have a unique individual relationship with how we know God.
Know God's Sovereignty.
We study our Infinite God, try to finitely define Him, we cannot. He Is.
Closest as I can come: God is Love.
My Savior said to evangelize all the world!

Woe to him that believes himself God
trying to fill their empty with the world's distractions
and bent on destroying America for fun and profit.
That is the lost soul I am looking for to save.
So that we can get to Matthew 24
"...and then the end shall come."
Soon.

Spot on. We were made as individuals and we are dealt with as such right up until the one unforgivable sin.
Will our creator select His first string to send in at that moment? I wonder.

[.429&H110]

We do in fact create God in our own image,
then through Bible study we figure out
the Nature of God as best as we can.
A very steep learning curve:
Idolatry is bad. Coveting is the first sin. I am not God.
"They are not the twelve suggestions" (thank you Charlton Heston)
We were not made to learn this by our own lonely selves.
We need fellowship.

I only write "God" as a shorthand for the Triune
else I would write the hymn, "Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Greatest name I Know"
Some people still do not know who Jesus is.

Google: Do you know Jesus?
You will make the AI grunt for a second
and get billions of hits. This post now included...
The AI might not know who, but knows where.

While we are hanging about waiting for the New Jerusalem
I am curious about the new evangelism, since reading is not taught anymore.
Door knocking can get us shot. What to do?
Maybe education should go back to the churches where it came from.
Maybe if the kids learned, they could teach their parents how to read.
Let the teacher's union teach their own kids, not mine.
"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God." R10:17

Cowboy Gospel never died around here,
the kids are playing the old time gospel very well.
Been awhile since I have seen a fiddle-dobro-banjo-guitar-bass-spoons
playing gospel on stage by teenagers, here they are.
Eighteen children playing four octaves of chimes, golly!
If if if we could get Cowboy Gospel on MTV?
Salvation on an iphone?

"With God nothing is impossible"

[Good Cheer]

After a few decades to mull it over it seemed obvious that we didn't create God in our image.
No doubt lots of people create their own gods but if you're for God then no, you didn't create Him.

On a side note, I have a book received as a gift in the 90's with a photo of an Assyrian statue of a desert demon which happens to be down right cherubic if you study scripture. That gave me pause and a glimmer of an idea concerning the many gods of the Old Testament, that the various peoples' perceptions of and experiences with those beings they encountered perhaps depended in part upon whose side they were on. And of course it gave me something to think about concerning the tendencies towards the anthropomorphizing of gods, that being a idea thrown out there most often by people with a need to explain away God and gods in general. What it boils down to is that in supernatural experiences the beings involved decide how they are going to present themselves to and how they will interact with people.

[1hole]

.429
I have had this conversation even with family members and told them to use caution not to try to create GOD in their image.
Folks say for example, I know the bible says this, that or the other but I can't believe that GOD would really do that or be that mean.
And that is where I have to step in and say, your feelings are really irreverent... When you say I know GOD's word says one thing but I don't feel that way. In essence you are down playing The Almighty's sovereignty and trying to create him in your own image.

Very perceptive. But ... much of scripture is metopher or aligory and insisting on sticking to some literal words (i.e., "... it says right here ...") without striving to grasp the literal message may open us to massive confusion.

For instance:

1. "Thou shall not kill" (Ex 20:13) taken literally would mean it's sinful to even swat a fly; that's obviously not true. I mean, God clearly finds no offense at killing human enemies in war, or stoning people to death for adultry under the Mosaic Law, etc. So, that "kill" word should rightly have been translated to "...you shall not commit murder" (Ex 20:13) and what the KJV scripture specifically says is not at all what it means.

2. "In the morning my prayers shall prevent thee". (Psm 88:13). So, what is it about our prayers that can prevent God from executing his day's plans; answer is, "NOTHING!". That's simply a currently wrong translation rising from the days of Shakesperian English! What "prevent" meant at that time was "precede" or "go before", effectively meaning our prayers should be before God from the moment we wake up.

There are quite a few other words Christians tend to wrongly get heated about in well meaning efforts to "stick to scripture exactly as it's written" without considering what the original message was.

[1hole]

I think if you move the comma over one word so that it falls after the word Today and not you... it is easier to understand

So, just moving a comma can change the meaning of many things? True!

BUT, in that admission, you put your finger on one of the biggest hurtles Bible translators have to sweat and pray over; the old languages didn't have such punctuation! In fact, they had no periods, no question marks, no paragraphs and, sometimes, no space between words. The sentence structure and grammar was always much different than ours and we know of no dictionaries to help them translate. All of that makes it very hard for anyone striving to accurately translate the old manuscripts into modern English! I believe it was the mind of God that got so much agreement in our various mainstream translations.

[Good Cheer]

Very perceptive. But ... much of scripture is metopher or aligory and insisting on sticking to some literal words (i.e., "... it says right here ...") without striving to grasp the literal message may open us to massive confusion.

For instance:

1. "Thou shall not kill" (Ex 20:13) taken literally would mean it's sinful to even swat a fly; that's obviously not true. I mean, God clearly finds no offense at killing human enemies in war, or stoning people to death for adultry under the Mosaic Law, etc. So, that "kill" word should rightly have been translated to "...you shall not commit murder" (Ex 20:13) and what the KJV scripture specifically says is not at all what it means.

2. "In the morning my prayers shall prevent thee". (Psm 88:13). So, what is it about our prayers that can prevent God from executing his day's plans; answer is, "NOTHING!". That's simply a currently wrong translation rising from the days of Shakesperian English! What "prevent" meant at that time was "precede" or "go before", effectively meaning our prayers should be before God from the moment we wake up.

There are quite a few other words Christians tend to wrongly get heated about in well meaning efforts to "stick to scripture exactly as it's written" without considering what the original message was.

And as has been demonstrated before in the Deep Theological Discussion forum, not just words but entire passages taken out of context and misunderstood because the translators, the readers, philosophizers and theorizers fail to pay attention to the subject and the object while not bothering to look up the words in a (pre-Nelson hopefully) Strong's Concordance.

[Alabama358]

So, just moving a comma can change the meaning of many things? True!

BUT, in that admission, you put your finger on one of the biggest hurtles Bible translators have to sweat and pray over; the old languages didn't have such punctuation! In fact, they had no periods, no question marks, no paragraphs and, sometimes, no space between words. The sentence structure and grammar was always much different than ours and we know of no dictionaries to help them translate. All of that makes it very hard for anyone striving to accurately translate the old manuscripts into modern English!

The KJV Bible was Translated over a 7 year period by 47+ translators and scholars.(including the works of William Tyndale and others)
We are talking about World Class Scholars and Translators... The Best of the Best! It took years of meticulous dedicated study and analysis to complete their final Translation.
We are not talking about a few scrubs sitting around with their Scofield study bible saying "what is the Greek word for this that or the other". These Scholars and Linguistic experts had libraries of information to draw from.
*Furthermore, if you believe that all scripture is GOD breathed... then it should be simple to take the leap of faith that the Holy Spirit had a hand in their work and that they weren't simply shooting from the hip without so much as a dictionary.

*2 Timothy 3:16
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

I believe it was the mind of God that got so much agreement in our various mainstream translations.

* I am not presumptuous enough to think that I know the mind of GOD...

**So I will say it like this, having many mainstream modern day translations that differ one from another only serve the folks pushing doctrines of men and sewing seeds of confusion amongst believers is not fruitful.


*1 Corinthians 1:25
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

**1 Corinthians 14:33
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

[Alabama358]

Very perceptive. But ... much of scripture is metopher or aligory and insisting on sticking to some literal words (i.e., "... it says right here ...") without striving to grasp the literal message may open us to massive confusion.

"Much of Scripture is metaphor or allegory"???

How much is "Much"? 50-60%

Much? I think not. Some folks push that idea so that they can tell you what "certain scripture" means and how it fits their (sometimes false) doctrine.

I think maybe the word your looking for is parables, and yes Jesus spoke in parables (fulfilling previous prophecy)

Matthew 13: 34-35
34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

But...to say that much of the Bible is Parables would even be a whopper.

1 Corinthians 14:33
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

[Good Cheer]

All of which is illustrating the importance of digging in and studying.

Scripture poses a huge body of knowledge and if you know just enough to get into trouble, well, you get into trouble.
Once you get into the ditch on an incorrect premise it can be pretty hard to get back out.

I'm going to drift back to the beginnings of this thread. As I've never been convinced there is a whisking away until when the two witnesses are murdered it's of interest to see how other people interpret scripture and arrive at other conclusions.

[1hole]

All of which is illustrating the importance of digging in and studying.

Scripture poses a huge body of knowledge and if you know just enough to get into trouble, well, you get into trouble.

One of the best Bible study books is a concordance. They list every verse containing any word you want to better understand. When you see the big picture of any word you will better understand the heart of the Author. For instance, look up and read every use of "baptize" in a complete concordance. You will likely find that, spiritually, God sees true (saving) baptism as much more than just a brief public ritual of dunking, pouring or sprinkling anyone with water.

[Good Cheer]

One of the best Bible study books is a concordance. They list every verse containing any word you want to better understand. When you see the big picture of any word you will better understand the heart of the Author. For instance, look up and read every use of "baptize" in a complete concordance. You will likely find that, spiritually, God sees true (saving) baptism as much more than just a brief public ritual of dunking, pouring or sprinkling anyone with water.

Strong's rocks. Pre-Nelson rocks Stronger.