358 Win Results-200gr Cast

[brasshog]

So today was finally range day with my new rifle. I had loaded ten five shot strings at one grain increments starting at 31.0gr of IMR4198 for the MP mold (MP 358-200 GC) that is a clone of the RCBS 358-200. My rifle is a 1 in 12" twist 20" heavy sporter barrel from Hart. Initial groups at 31.0gr looked promising at 50 and 100 yards. It drilled them with 32.0gr at 100 yards into a one inch four shot group with the first shot being the flier (five shots total) that may have been a fouling shot due to cleaning prior to starting the string. I had fired fourteen shots at 31.0gr to get it sighted in at fifty and one hundred yards. The fifth shot in the picture is off to the right under the tape measure and would make the group 1 7/8" total. Every increment above 32.0 gr became wider and wider until I eventually stopped shooting due to an eight inch group and just cut my losses. I'll disassemble the rest of the rounds for the components. The rifle didn't like the hornady 200gr and the Winchester 200gr factory jword loads and were four inches at best at 100 yards with the Winchester ammo. Now to revisit the range again with a plus and minus string around of 32.0gr.

Velocity Average-2107.8 fps
Velocity Spread From Lowest To Highest-86 fps
Alloy-94-3-3
10-11 BHN
Gas Check Made From .014 Aluminum Flashing
Ben's Red Lube






Left Version Of Boolit

[TD1886]

So today was finally range day with my new rifle. I had loaded ten five shot strings at one grain increments starting at 31.0gr of IMR4198 for the MP mold (MP 358-200 GC) that is a clone of the RCBS 358-200. My rifle is a 1 in 12" twist 20" heavy sporter barrel from Hart. Initial groups at 31.0gr looked promising at 50 and 100 yards. It drilled them with 32.0gr at 100 yards into a one inch four shot group with the first shot being the flier (five shots total) that may have been a fouling shot due to cleaning prior to starting the string. I had fired fourteen shots at 31.0gr to get it sighted in at fifty and one hundred yards. The fifth shot in the picture is off to the right under the tape measure and would make the group 1 7/8" total. Every increment above 32.0 gr became wider and wider until I eventually stopped shooting due to an eight inch group and just cut my losses. I'll disassemble the rest of the rounds for the components. The rifle didn't like the hornady 200gr and the Winchester 200gr factory jword loads and were four inches at best at 100 yards with the Winchester ammo. Now to revisit the range again with a plus and minus string around of 32.0gr.

Velocity Average-2107.8 fps
Velocity Spread From Lowest To Highest-86 fps
Alloy-94-3-3
10-11 BHN
Gas Check Made From .014 Aluminum Flashing
Ben's Red Lube






Left Version Of Boolit

Good report. I have that bullet and it's actually a 217 grain with the hollow point and 222 as a solid. I shoot it in my 35 Whelen and I use Unique and it shoots spectacular 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards. What kind of velocities did you get with that load?

[brasshog]

Thank you. Mine weigh in at 202.6gr each in the solid form with the 94-3-3 alloy. It sounds like you have the next mold up in weight. I want to get that one as well. The average velocity was 2107.8fps with the lowest being 1960fps and the highest being 2074fps. I tried this boolit in my 35 Whelen that has a 1 in 14" twist and it appeared to not like it but I need to revisit it due to some testing errors. The higher the velocity the more the group walked and I was soon off paper before I realized what was happening. Velocity in the whelen was between 2100-2450fps in the fifty round test string using IMR4198.

[NSB]

I’m surprised your rifle didn’t like the Hornady 200g bullets. Try some 4895 next time out. Here’s a pic of one five shot group fired back to back with a three shot group with my Encore. I found the Hornady 200g to be the most accurate in my gun but it was fussy about the powder used. 4895 really shined compared with all else I tried.

[brasshog]

@NSB-I haven't found any 4895 on the shelves yet for testing. I do have the jwords to try to duplicate the factory load when I do. I may try them with IMR4198 in the meantime. Both my buddy and I both shot groups with the factory loads and although his were slightly better than mine (rare lol) we both noted that the rifle did not like them at all as factory ammo. I would have had a hard time covering them with one hand.

[Kosh75287]

A 200 gr. flat-point at 2100 f/s seems A LITTLE under the .358's punching weight, but for a 1" 4-shot group, I'D be willing to sacrifice a little "punch". I'm wondering how that projectile might expand if fired into water-soaked newsprint from 100 yards.

[brasshog]

@Kosh75287- I want to test it in gelatin but haven't purchased any as of yet. I will be doing expansion testing out to 200 yards before too long hopefully. I just have to find a satisfactory medium once I finish the load work. At 2100 fps and as a hollow point I think that it'll kill these little Florida deer easily lol.

[TD1886]

Thank you. Mine weigh in at 202.6gr each in the solid form with the 94-3-3 alloy. It sounds like you have the next mold up in weight. I want to get that one as well. The average velocity was 2107.8fps with the lowest being 1960fps and the highest being 2074fps. I tried this boolit in my 35 Whelen that has a 1 in 14" twist and it appeared to not like it but I need to revisit it due to some testing errors. The higher the velocity the more the group walked and I was soon off paper before I realized what was happening. Velocity in the whelen was between 2100-2450fps in the fifty round test string using IMR4198.

Try your bullet with some Unique. In the 35 Whelen I'm using 18 to 19 grains. Of course that's too much for the 358, maybe start off with 15 grains and see how they shoot.

[brasshog]

@TD1886-Thanks for the info. I finally found a pound of Unique on the shelf yesterday and was going to buy it until I saw the price. They wanted $60 per pound and had only one pound. It's still there lol

[MostlyLeverGuns]

I've used Accurate 2015 for excellent results in my .358's. Varget and Accurate 2520 have given excellent results with both 200 and 220-225 grain jacketed bullets. I started, long ago, with IMR 4895, but then the Accurate powders came along and worked as well or better, long ago they were cheaper than IMR and Hodgdon's. The accuracy from both Varget and 2520 is surprising, but mostly 2015 works for mild to top end loading, acts a lot like 3031 but measures much better. You may be pushing too fast with 4198, you may get better results with a slower powder when trying to reach top velocities with cast boolits. Velocity will be limited using the faster powders like Unique, RedDot, other 'pistol/shotgun' powders.

[brasshog]

@MostlyLeverGuns- Thanks for the info. I would like a slower burning powder that gives the same results with this bullet.

To be honest when I set out for the range yesterday I was only hoping for 2MOA accuracy since it was a brand new barrel and I had never loaded for 358 Win. Since 90% of my shots are within 100 yards for hunting I figured that I could easily live with 1.5MOA accuracy with a 2,000fps load for Florida deer and hog hunting. I was very happy with the initial results and this years "freezer camp" is looking like a definitely possibility for some critters.

[ACC]

When my brother died I got his 243,284,308,358 model 70's. The 358 is the only one I have tried working up cast bullet loads for. The 358 takes to cast bullets like butter on bread. My son has used it to take feral hogs at about 150 yards. Drops them like flys.

ACC

[dverna]

I was puzzled by the choice of powder and went to the Hodgdon site. 4198 is not listed.

It seems a bit fast, especially for cast bullets where most folks suggest slower powders to help with accuracy. It might explain why your groups got worse as the powder charges went up.

But if you are getting good accuracy at the lower velocity, I agree with you...2000 fps is going to hammer deer more than adequately.

Good luck with the next round of testing.

[TD1886]

I was puzzled by the choice of powder and went to the Hodgdon site. 4198 is not listed.

It seems a bit fast, especially for cast bullets where most folks suggest slower powders to help with accuracy. It might explain why your groups got worse as the powder charges went up.

But if you are getting good accuracy at the lower velocity, I agree with you...2000 fps is going to hammer deer more than adequately.

Good luck with the next round of testing.

That slow powders for accuracy with cast is pretty much delegated to if you want high velocity accuracy. I think the 4198 powder is fine for cast, maybe not the load he was using it at. After all the 358 Winchester is almost, almost a straight walled case and as the bullet goes down the bore the volume increases fast. They use 4198 in the 45-70. Not knocking you, just telling you what I know.

[brasshog]

@TD1886-The main reason that I used 4198 was because locally there were almost no choices in powder on the shelf when I began looking for suitable powders almost two years ago. The nearest place that stocked powder and primers was a 45 minute drive away so it wasn't feasible to just pop over to look all of the time lol. I was looking for one to two pounds of each of the common types to test with before trying to buy at volume especially since the prices were a bit high back then. It wasn't until recently that I started finding deals locally such as eight pounds of AA#5 for $180 . I also want to test 4895, RL7, H335, and BLC-2 for both cast and jwords.

[TD1886]

@TD1886-The main reason that I used 4198 was because locally there were almost no choices in powder on the shelf when I began looking for suitable powders almost two years ago. The nearest place that stocked powder and primers was a 45 minute drive away so it wasn't feasible to just pop over to look all of the time lol. I was looking for one to two pounds of each of the common types to test with before trying to buy at volume especially since the prices were a bit high back then. It wasn't until recently that I started finding deals locally such as eight pounds of AA#5 for $180 . I also want to test 4895, RL7, H335, and BLC-2 for both cast and jwords.

There's nothing wrong with you using 4198. I like Hodgdon's H 4198 because the kernels are short and meter better. Maybe try a lighter load of 4198, just load 3 to 5 that will give you an idea if they are going to shoot. Also you don't need real high velocity with cast. I killed a deer one year with my Model 94 Winchester with a 175 grain bullet meant for the 8x57. It was a good 100 yards and the deer was facing me at an angle. Bullet entered her right chest and exited her left hip. I was disappointed I couldn't recover the bullet. When I processed her I'm tell you she was messed up inside bad as though I shot her with a 7mm Magnum. That bullet went through some 30 plus inches of deer. It was cast from 50/50 alloy. It started out at 1750 so 100 yard trip took a lot of velocity out of it.

[brasshog]

@TD1886-I started my string below the 32.0 mark and found accuracy improved after 31.0gr but started to decline after 33.0gr. My next test string will be from 31-33gr in increments to see if it gets any better. I am completely happy with 1MOA accuracy in cast but if it will do better then I'll take it.

[murf205]

When my brother died I got his 243,284,308,358 model 70's. The 358 is the only one I have tried working up cast bullet loads for. The 358 takes to cast bullets like butter on bread. My son has used it to take feral hogs at about 150 yards. Drops them like flys.

ACC

I don't know what it is about 35 cal rifles that makes them love cast boolits but they do indeed. Even my 38 Norma Mag with it's big fat case and semi short neck love 200 gr cast in the 2000 fps range. In the velocity range of 30-30's, it will punch way above its weight.
brasshog, it looks like your work is paying off.

[brasshog]

Correction on the group size. It was a hot day lol. The group size for four shots was .94-.97" at 100 yards. Headed to the range Sunday to try it at 200 yards.

[brasshog]

Went to the range today to sight it in at 200 yards and see what my groups were but there was a rifle match going all day on the 200 yard range so I didn't get to shoot at that distance. I did however get to move the rounds over to the X at 100 yards. All rounds danced on the X except one that was still in the red at 11:00 (the ar-15 guys arrived lol). I'll try the range again soon for the 200 yards.

@Kosh75287-The only real world data that I have been able to find on the net was a fifty yard test with both the hollow point (size unknown) and the flat point in the 220gr at the same velocity. At 50 yards or so he had full expansion out of both.
Here are his pics: