My first 45-70

[Super Sneaky Steve]

So I'm trying to get into black powder cartridges so I bought a CVA Scout in 45-70.

My impression after reading stuff on the net is that most modern guns like .457 boolits and the older ones like bigger boolits like .460.

I tried slugging the bore and I was surprised that the groves measured out to .460. I'm not sure if this is normal or not but the largest I can size it the boolit to and neck size to is .460. Am I on the right track?

[BLAHUT]

Yes for a start ? The gun will tell you what it likes for accuracy and load ?

[Winger Ed.]

Sounds good.

To get a little extra diameter, you might try sizing to .360, then powder coat them.

[725]

? typo .360 ? PC a .460 boolit.

[Castaway]

Before I tried anything fancy, I’d cast some 1:20 bullets and see how they worked. Black powder under a relatively soft bullet will bump up the diameter to the point your bullets may work fine

[ascast]

what castaway said. lube is a huge issue with black powder and powder coating aint it. I don't think anyone has made that work, unless using a big grease cookie under bullet.SPG is good, 50/50 crisco-beeswax works well, plenty of others too. Most molds will drop a bit big and several will drop at 460 or bigger. You want to shoot at 100 yds or 1,000 ?

[kungfustyle]

I had a CVA in 45-70 a few years ago, one peace of advice, don't expect better than a 2inch group out of it and you'll love the gun. Mine sized at .457 so sizing at .458 was right for me. If you need a larger sizer look at NOE's push through or Lap out a Lee .458 it is easy to do with a wood dowel and some sand paper. With the 45-70 you can get away with dip lubing or pan lubing, you aren't going to go through 200 boolits on a shooting session . It's a new experience to empty a lead pot so quickly casting for the 45-70. 400 to 500 grains drains a Lee 20lb pot in short time. Best of luck and enjoy your new gun.

[Skipper]

So I'm trying to get into black powder cartridges so I bought a CVA Scout in 45-70.

My impression after reading stuff on the net is that most modern guns like .457 boolits and the older ones like bigger boolits like .460.

I tried slugging the bore and I was surprised that the groves measured out to .460. I'm not sure if this is normal or not but the largest I can size it the boolit to and neck size to is .460. Am I on the right track?

Try a hollow base slug. It should expand and take the rifiling.

[nicholst55]

As stated above, or try paper patching.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

I took my first shots today. I forgot my patches so I only got to shoot two groups before accuracy began to get worse.

I shot both the Lee 500 and Lee 405 bullets. They both have the most generous lube groves in the Lee lineup.

I was using very hard lead, because that's what I have. I do however, have the option of using my pure lead pot.

Powder was 60gr by weight of homemade 1F. 60gr brought the powder level right to the top, there was no more that could fit in the case.

I use a vegie wad over top with a compression die to pack it all together. All bullets were sized .458 and a neck sizer was used of that same size. Finished with a Lee Factory Crimp Die.

Both the 500 and 405 gave me 2" groups at 50 yards. My CVA Accura muzzle loader will take that same 500gr boolit made of pure lead and have the holes touching at that distance.

So now the question is what do I change first?

Powder type? I do have 3F but 1F is easier to make. I could likely fit more in the case.

Amount of powder?

Bullet size? I have the ability to size 457 to 460

Bullet hardness? Pure lead would be an option.

Something else?

If I could cut those groups in half I would be perfectly satisfied.

Thanks!

[Super Sneaky Steve]

I forgot to mention speeds were 1062fps for the 500 boolit and 1082 for the 405 boolit.

[Brimstone]

I'm partial to pure lead over 1fg of my own make.
I use a BACO mold that replicates the M1881 Frankford Arsenal bullet. Round nose, 500gr and 3 large high capacity grooves.

I subscribe to the theory that the lead obturates, the grooves close up a bit and the grease under hydraulic force thus flows to seal the joint between the bullet and barrel, feeds the barrel as the bullet enters the throat and heads down. That it effectively gas checks the joint preventing gas erosion, hard fouling deposition and leading.
It'll depend on the brisance of your powder too. I'd try pure lead first.

[Castaway]

Rather than pure lead, I’d go 1:20. The tin will help fill the cavity. If me, I’d go 3f to get a bit more velocity and then start increasing your charge, keeping the same compression. If that doesn’t give the results you want, I’d then switch back to the 1f. You didn’t mention a drop tube. Try dropping or vibrating the case and see if you can get more powder on the case

[Super Sneaky Steve]

Rather than pure lead, I’d go 1:20. The tin will help fill the cavity. If me, I’d go 3f to get a bit more velocity and then start increasing your charge, keeping the same compression. If that doesn’t give the results you want, I’d then switch back to the 1f. You didn’t mention a drop tube. Try dropping or vibrating the case and see if you can get more powder on the case

I did make a crude drop tube which I used. This is my first time trying to make good black powder metallic cartridges.

I usually save my 3F for my percussion revolvers. My mill tends to crack a lot of 1F if I tried to further reduce it I'd have lots of fines so it's just more efficient if 1F can be used, but it may be worth trying 3F.

I'll say that the 500gr boolits hit my shoulder plenty hard enough so I'd be happy with current velocities if I can find a little better accuracy.

Thanks for the suggestions. I'm going to cast some pure lead boolits next chance I get and if it needs a little tin I can look for some.

[Gobeyond]

Sounds like everything is working right, right now. Not for competition maybe. What do you want to use them to do? Maybe you need consistency in loading, or the very best of everything, and precision in everything you do and buy and weigh and size and cull
And cast. Money and time. But you want to be here at 500 yds? I’m not trying to discourage you but that, you’re looking for is professional works. God bless ya.

[218bee]

Personally for me, any 45/70 I've had 2F and the Lee 405 unsized soft lead has worked well. 60-65 of 2F should be good.
Try some primer experimentation LR, LRM and LP. I would think velocity would be around 1300-1400.
Best of luck and enjoy the experimentation! Keep us posted, I'm interested in what you come up with.

[country gent]

My load for 45-7 is as follows

62 grns 1 1/2f old ensforde powder
.060 napa rubber fiber wad 2 typing paper wads
535grn postell cast 20-1 lubed with either SPG or emmerts improved pan lubed loaded as cast
strarline brass flash holes deburred primer pockets uniformed trimmed
rem large rifle primers.
powder is compressed
bullets are hand seated onto the wads. no .crimp light neck tension

[Rapier]

If you want to improve things considerably when shooting BP, between shots use a large oversized cleaning swab soaked with rubbing alcohol. Every shot is then with a clean barrel, the alcohol evaporates almost instantly.

[Duckiller]

You are shooting a caliber that was used to shoot buffalo and indian ponies. 1/2 MOA accuracy was not required. Try different things . Simple to more complicaed. You are just starting with this gun. Get used to it get in properly broken in before you change a bunch of things.

[bedbugbilly]

And before you load up a bunch with the boolit you decide on - load a dummy round and make sure it chambers OK - a good idea when starting out with nay rifle new to you.