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Thread: I screwed up... Now I need to pull down 47 shells.

  1. #21
    Boolit Buddy FrankJD's Avatar
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    IMM - I would cut the shells and save the powder, primers, shot, maybe the wads. Been there, done that a few times.

    Loading shotshells is ***SO*** different than loading for most rifle/handgun cartridges. This is Extremely compounded by the lack of shell components with listed shotshell loading data. Best thing is to get trusted advice whence mixing/maxing components in substitute manners. Even so, load maybe 5 shells, test, and look for pressure signs. Good luck, you'll need it ... as with most of us loading shotshells these insane times.
    The .45-70 is the only government I trust.

  2. #22
    Boolit Master

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    Well, I bought a five foot piece of 3/4 Schedule 40 PVC pipe this afternoon, along with a tee and two caps to fit (and checked fit with a fired hull before laying down any money). For around $12 (including three feet of pipe I don't need and a can of PVC glue I'll only use 5% of, if that) I've got what I need to make a kinetic puller for 12 ga.

    If this doesn't get the job done effectively, I can still cut the crimps -- but as noted above, it only has to get the crimp to open enough to get needle nose pliers in to finish the job. If this works, all I've lost on the remaining 47 unfired shells is my time and a fraction of the powder that won't be recoverable (due to static cling). I've gained some valuable knowledge, so I think it's a good trade for my time (I might be of a different opinion if I'd depended solely on these reloads for that shoot, but I try to avoid single points of failure).

  3. #23
    Boolit Buddy FrankJD's Avatar
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    Another consideration might be roll crimps. If you booger up half of the star crimp during opening, what's left can be trimmed, expanded (cone and heat gun), roll crimped on top of the overshot wad.
    The .45-70 is the only government I trust.

  4. #24
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankJD View Post
    roll crimps
    It's an option, I do have a roll crimper that fits in a drill chuck. The trimming shortens the hulls, though, and then I'm back to having to either find 2 1/2 loads for the powders I have (and buy still more wads, most likely), or the dreaded "substituting components". There just isn't any way to cut off a crimp without winding up with a shorter shell (since the roll crimp takes up about as much hull length as a star crimp). I do want to make up some 2" shells at some point (just to try out, at this point, and because they should let me load one more in the tube on my 870), but I'd prefer to really get the hang of this stuff first since pretty much any load I've seen for shells shorter than 2 3/4 is "from some idiot on the Internet" and I'm reliably informed I'll blow up my gun (and possibly my hands and face) using loads of that kind.

  5. #25
    Boolit Buddy FrankJD's Avatar
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    I meant that if you can open up a star crimp, NOT cut it off, and booger up a bit of the crimped ends with pliers and such, cutting back just part of the crimped ends should still allow that hull to be roll crimped as a 2-3/4" shell.

    It's a buncha work, but so is attempting to salvage a hull that's not worth the total cost of the primer, powder, wad, shot, and possibly cards. Again, I'd ditch the hulls, they're cheap enuf.

    At this point, all that matters to me is playing the shotshell load substitution game, and typically with straight walled plastic hulls of various brand and model parentage, primarily that means to be wary of magnum primers listed in load data (i.e. Federal 209A) where I only have on hand 209 primers (i.e. Cheddite) and if found and the load still wants to be used, drop the powder charge 1-2 grains, load up a few shells, fire and check for any over pressure signs or other weirdness.
    The .45-70 is the only government I trust.

  6. #26
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Sometimes lessons are learned. Like I said in a previous post, buying quality hulls is a better option. There are hundreds of recipes and components for them are normally easily found at reasonable prices.

    The only “junk” hulls I used to load were once fired Top Guns, and I pitched them after the first reload. They were free at every trap and skeet club.

    I am not saying the Fiocchi hulls are junk but it is unlikely they are “good”. I say that because in the many years of competitive trap shooting they were not something we used or wanted.

    I would not spend time salvaging them.
    Don Verna


  7. #27
    Boolit Master
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    Published load data using card under plastic wad - over powder:

    Load #11284

    https://www.ballisticproducts.com/load07082022.htm

    Last edited by RMc; 06-02-2023 at 12:42 AM.

  8. #28
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by RMc View Post
    Published load data using card under plastic wad - over powder:

    Load #11284

    https://www.ballisticproducts.com/load07082022.htm

    I don't understand how this helps the OP. Different hull, different payload, and different powder.
    Don Verna


  9. #29
    Boolit Master
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    The Hodgdon load data center is replete with tapered wad loads for straight wall hulls. The same is true of published Alliant shotshell load data.

  10. #30
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by I'll Make Mine View Post
    ...since the roll crimp takes up about as much hull length as a star crimp...
    Only if your RTO is deeper than need be.

    See post #50 :
    https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...evisited/page3
    Last edited by RMc; 06-03-2023 at 04:53 PM.

  11. #31
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by I'll Make Mine View Post
    ...I do want to make up some 2" shells at some point (just to try out, at this point, and because they should let me load one more in the tube on my 870)...
    Yet long enough to cycle through a Mossberg 500/590 without an adapter:

    https://www.americanrifleman.org/con...a-2-shotshell/
    Last edited by RMc; 06-03-2023 at 03:50 AM.

  12. #32
    Boolit Master
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    The OP has run into two opposing general concerns, as illustrated above in post 27 & 29.

    There seems to be little industry concern about the possibility of powder migration from the common pairing of tapered wads with straight wall hulls in loading data sources.

    On the other hand:

    That published data is available using an over powder card- under a plastic wad, at the least, lends some credence to this as a valid loading method.
    Last edited by RMc; 06-03-2023 at 04:51 PM.

  13. #33
    Boolit Master
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    If your old enough to remember, when I was a youngn' you got a set of tong style nut crackers and there was a metal pick with a slight curve behind the point so you could get the last little bit of nut meat out of the hull. Shank/handle had some mild texturing so it was easy to handle. It never recovered enough leftover nut to worry with. But that rascal is about the best tool for opening the folds of shotgun shell crimp. Slip the point in the center hole and rotate the tool so the back of the curve is up and gently pull it up. Work your way around gently pulling each fold up. Once they're all up, dump the shot and use your fingers or thumb to finish the opening process. Use a finger or needle nose pliers to pull out the wad. You'll get the hang of it.

    Now if you want to open a bunch of hulls that you don't plan to use again, a PVC pliers type pipe cutter is the best and fastest way to open ANY plastic or paper hull.Takes about 2 seconds to cut and you wont cut yourself unless you stick your finger in the jaws instead of a hull or PVC pipe.

  14. #34
    Boolit Grand Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    I use a small shaft Phillip's screwdriver when I need to redo a shell. Insert it into the center at a 30 to 45 degree angle and rotate it at least once around the shell.

    Once you have an opening big enough to pour the shot out, do that, catching it in a small container. Then a needle nose pliers to fold the crimp out all the way and grab the wad, removing it.

    Personally I've been happy with the primed Rio and Fiochii hulls I've bought.

    IMO Dverna is right about his 3 rules. Break or bend them at your own risk.
    Not trying to rain on your parade, just concerned.
    I truly believe we need to get back to basics.

    Get right with the Lord.
    Get back to the land.
    Get back to thinking like our forefathers thought.


    May the Lord bless you and keep you. May the Lord make His face to shine upon you and be gracious unto you
    and give you His peace. Let all of the earth – all of His creation – worship and praise His name! Make His
    praise glorious!

  15. #35
    Boolit Master Baltimoreed's Avatar
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    Don’t waste your components. Sacrifice the hulls and save the rest. Never heard of putting a card under the shot cup/wad. Don’t see why you would do it. I put cards made from primer sleeves over my shot in case theres a hole in my petals and I have used a thicker card in the cup to make extra lite loads. I was gifted a bunch of old handloads that I tore down for the shot and primers. Was a chore but worth it.

  16. #36
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    I am not saying the Fiocchi hulls are junk but it is unlikely they are “good”. I say that because in the many years of competitive trap shooting they were not something we used or wanted.
    This sounds a lot like "We don't use these because they aren't good. They aren't good because we don't use them." A circular argument, which (to me) is a red flag that someone hasn't actually thought it through or tested the premise.

    Quote Originally Posted by RMc View Post
    The Hodgdon load data center is replete with tapered wad loads for straight wall hulls.
    Indeed it is, without a single word about powder migration or potential seal failure squibs.

    Quote Originally Posted by GhostHawk View Post
    Personally I've been happy with the primed Rio and Fiochii hulls I've bought.

    IMO Dverna is right about his 3 rules. Break or bend them at your own risk.
    Not trying to rain on your parade, just concerned.
    Given that Fiocchi and Rio loaded ammunition, using the same hulls, is perfectly fine, I don't see any reason to poo-poo the new, primed hulls. Okay, they may not last six or seven or eight loadings like a Remington -- but they're a lot easier to find and enough less expensive (new primed hulls for less than a once-fired Remington plus a primer) that I'll live with only getting two or three loads out of them before they start to fail.

    People who blindly follow the first rule must have a very hard time reloading these days -- given some of the popular wads are just no longer produced, all the loads for them are forever invalidated under that rule until the powder or hull maker retests and republishes them for substitute wads.

    The second rule would eliminate even checking established load data to see if the YouTuber's information is valid and sensible, after seeing a video that demonstrates what seems a useful and sensible idea.

    The third rule would have me wasting resources, thereby establishing that if I can't afford to blindly spend money I shouldn't try to shoot or reload. If I could afford that, I'd have a double gun and a semi to choose from for skeet instead of trying to get by with an 870 (that needs me to go through it and polish up the action, apparently), and I'd have a progressive reloading press (if I bother to reload at all), and I'd be following rule #1 instead of trying to save ten cents a shell so I can afford to shoot more than a couple times a year.

    No, I don't really think this is how they're intended, but that's the way they come across. I'm very much interested in shooting and reloading safely, else I wouldn't have accepted and responded to comments outside my originally requested efficient method of breaking down these shells without destroying the hulls. I don't, however, blindly believe that hidebound rote is the only way to do this. I'm a firm believer in understanding what's going on, so as to control it effectively.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baltimoreed View Post
    Never heard of putting a card under the shot cup/wad. Don’t see why you would do it.
    To prevent two possible results of taper hull wads in a straight wall hull: powder migration and squibs. A proper over-powder nitro card will both seal the powder into the base of the hull, and act as a gas seal (as it would in an old fashioned fiber wad load), obviating issues with a taper hull wad failing to seal pressure and resulting in a squib. My main mistake in this case was thinking the bingo chips I had for overshot cards would replace a nitro card. Won't make that mistake again.

  17. #37
    Boolit Master
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    The Primed new shotshell case, (hull), for handloaders is a relatively new development in the modern component market.* Clear plastic hulls are relatively new as well. And this, apparently, made shotshell powder migration a visable reality.

    Recently, another solution to mismatched plastic wad and hull interior diameters has surfaced. The paper napkin!
    Simply take a thin single layer of paper napkin, cut into a one inch square and place over the case mouth before seating the plastic wad. Seating the wad then prevents powder migration with a thin layer of paper napkin without any significant change in stack height. Yes, this solution surfaced in facebook discussion groups and recently noted on Bubba Rountree Outoors, (You Tube).

    It would be interesting to see if test data disclosed any significant pressure differences occasioned by this simple solution.

    * In the late 1870s, new paper shotshell cases were sold in boxes of 100 primed hulls - to be loaded by consumers or to customer order in hardware stores.
    Last edited by RMc; 06-04-2023 at 10:31 PM.

  18. #38
    Boolit Grand Master

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    The paper napkin idea is not new. I have seen posts using paper "seals" to stop powder migration and IIRC Ajay Madden (SuperBlazingSabots) posted the same idea on this forum.

    I'm not sure how well a wad designed for taper hull would work in a straight walled hull but I'd guess that since the bore diameter is the same the main issue is powder migration in the hull. Once the wad is in the bore there should be no problem. So, some sort of powder "seal" like a piece of paper or paper napkin or even a thin cardboard disk that is snug in the hull should work for that.

    For myself, I do substitute wads but if they are cushion leg wads then the sub has to have a similar length and type of cushion leg. I have mentioned elsewhere that removing a cushion leg or using a wad with much stiffer cushion leg can raise pressure significantly.

    Megsupermagnum was/is doing some pressure testing with card wad seals and wad columns and has some interesting results. Do a search to find his results so far. I have read and assumed that leakage past nitro card wads would reduce pressure in comparison to plastic gas seals but maybe not! That and no collapsible cushion leg can cause an increase in pressure so yes, nitro card wads can be used instead of plastic gas seals but it is best to use published pressure tested load data using card wads rather than replace a cushion leg wad with card wads.

    I would not put a full diameter 12 ga. nitro card wad under a plastic gas seal for two reasons: it will add to the wad height due to its thickness and the fact that it will stop the plastic gas seal seating on the powder so yet another addition to wad stack height; it will ram into the lip of the plastic gas seal. I can't think that would be a good thing. The paper napkin idea wouldn't do that.

    Just my opinion.

    Longbow

  19. #39
    Boolit Master
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    cant believe the post is still going

  20. #40
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by longbow View Post
    The paper napkin idea is not new.
    Wax paper was suggested early in this thread, it should have almost identical effect: adding thickness on the wad diameter to keep the powder where it belongs, without affecting column height noticeably. I was going to try this, but I was able to find correct wads locally so now I have what I need (but still need to break down the bad shells).

    Pursuant to that, I've assembled a simple kinetic puller from 3/4 inch Schedule 40 PVC pipe. I haven't had time to test it yet, but I should get to try it this weekend. Given that these shells have 1 1/8 ounce of shot and that a shotshell's fold crimp is no sturdier than the factory crimp on metallic cartridges (which I have pulled down with a commercial kinetic puller, to convert smokeless rounds to black powder substitute for an antique revolver), this ought to work pretty well, and once I have the crimp opened enough to pour out the shot, the battle is won.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check