Circuit breaker problem when melting alloy

[Winger Ed.]

TThe remaining wires are 1 black and 1 tan

T

The tan wire counts as a white one. It's probably just old, and was white when it was new.

Home 120V circuit wires come as black, white, the bare copper ground wrapped in paper, and some times a red
one for applications you may not have. Such as running two circuits using one cable like in a kitchen
where different outlets are on 2 different circuits, but only one cable comes out of the panel box going behind the wall.

Call RCBS and tell them your tale of woe.
If they don't give you a new switch or thermal cut out-- they'll know what the problem is--
They'll sell you one on the cheap.

[RG1911]

The tan wire counts as a white one. It's probably just old, and was white when it was new.

Home 120V circuit wires come as black, white, the bare copper ground wrapped in paper, and some times a red
one for applications you may not have. Such as running two circuits using one cable like in a kitchen
where different outlets are on 2 different circuits, but only one cable comes out of the panel box going behind the wall.

Call RCBS and tell them your tale of woe.
If they don't give you a new switch or thermal cut out-- they'll know what the problem is--
They'll sell you one on the cheap.

Thank you! You're a gentleman and a scholar.

(A sticker, in the panel, with a brief description of the wires would have removed much of my confusion.) I actually have 2 GFCI circuits in the workroom, so I'll get another standard breaker.

Now to ping RCBS.

Cheers,
Richard

[Winger Ed.]

Check around the area. Kitchen, bathroom, etc.
Those circuits were probably GFI protected for a reason.
Those GFI breakers are rather expensive. Nobody uses them just because they're pretty.

Anything within about 6' of a water faucet or 'wet place' needs a GFI outlet
if the outlet isn't protected by a GFI breaker switch in the panel box.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Finally found a non-CFGI outlet I can access. The good news is that my pot, which started full, did not trip the breaker. The bad news is that after about 20 minutes, the pot turned off. I noticed after a few minutes and toggled the switch back on. The pot managed to finish melting the alloy but turned off again. I waited a while and toggled the switch. This time it stayed on only 2 minutes.

I am therefore assuming that something on the inside needs to be replaced. If so:

- Do you think RCBS will provide/sell the parts?
- Are the parts user-replaceable without being an electrician?
- Does the pot need to be emptied before disassembly/reassembly? (This might be a problem.)

Many thanks,
Richard

I gonna offer my suggestions in reverse order to which you asked.

- Does the pot need to be emptied before disassembly/reassembly? (This might be a problem.)
I don't think so.

- Are the parts user-replaceable without being an electrician?
If you are handy, probably...but the problem is (see next answer)

- Do you think RCBS will provide/sell the parts?
Yes, but the problem is figuring out what the problem part is. Can you figure it out? will they be able to figure it out from the symptoms you tell them?

So, my guess is it's the heating element is possibly corroded and intermittently, partially shorting out(that's why it trips the GFCI breaker). Winger thinks it's something else. Maybe neither of us are guessing correctly? Another concern is, I assume this is the older Pro-Melt model that's no longer available, so I wonder if RCBS will have the parts you need?

With that said, I wonder if RCBS will offer to rebuild this for you, if you ship it to them? Or if they can't due to not having parts, if they will replace it with the Pro-Melt 2 ?

That's my 2¢

[RG1911]

Check around the area. Kitchen, bathroom, etc.
Those circuits were probably GFI protected for a reason.
Those GFI breakers are rather expensive. Nobody uses them just because they're pretty.

Anything within about 6' of a water faucet or 'wet place' needs a GFI outlet
if the outlet isn't protected by a GFI breaker switch in the panel box.

No kidding they're expensive. Fortunately, no water that close. Thanks.

Cheers, Richard

[RG1911]

I gonna offer my suggestions in reverse order to which you asked.

- Do you think RCBS will provide/sell the parts?
Yes, but the problem is figuring out what the problem part is. Can you figure it out? will they be able to figure it out from the symptoms you tell them?

So, my guess is it's the heating element is possibly corroded and intermittently, partially shorting out(that's why it trips the GFCI breaker). Winger thinks it's something else. Maybe neither of us are guessing correctly? Another concern is, I assume this is the older Pro-Melt model that's no longer available, so I wonder if RCBS will have the parts you need?

With that said, I wonder if RCBS will offer to rebuild this for you, if you ship it to them? Or if they can't due to not having parts, if they will replace it with the Pro-Melt 2 ?

That's my 2¢

A very nice lady at RCBS gave me the unfortunate news that there are no repair parts left for the original Pro-Melt and a replacement is north of $300 (which I don't have). And they used to have a trade-in program but no longer.

Somewhere buried I *think* I have an old Lee Production pot. Shall try to find it.

And, since there's no apparent down side, I'll see if I can disassemble the Pro-Melt on the off chance that maybe some contacts just need some cleaning.

Thank you for all the information and help.

Cheers(?),
Richard

[Winger Ed.]

I'd go ahead and take it apart. Ya ain't got anything to lose anyway.

It might just need a switch or thermostat kind of something you could put on even it's not original.

I have a drill press that the switch went bad on and couldn't be replaced.
I connected the two switch wires together, glued a plastic outlet box on the front above the switch bracket,
and put a regular home light switch in it.

The cord is about 6" shorter, and It isn't pretty, but it's safe and works.

[BamaNapper]

A little explanation on GFCI breakers.

They have more wires because they are more than just a breaker. They do act as a breaker, for 20 amps in this case, but they also have a piece in them that's called a differential transformer. Simply, they run both the hot (LINE)and the neutral (LINE) into the breaker. They then run the hot (LOAD) and the neutrak (LOAD) out of the breaker. That differential transformer compares the current in both the hot and neutral wires(LINE). If there is even a small difference between the current in these two wires the breaker will trip. If everything is in good order the current will be the same, everything coming from the power line is making it back through the neutral. But if some of the current in the hot line is finding a secondary route to ground it might just be going through a homeowner's body. When the current going out doesn't equal the current coming back, it trips.

So you have more wires. Yes, you have two in, two out, and maybe the bare copper safety ground if it's not a panel mounted GFCI. In a non-GFCI breaker you have only one in and one out.

[RG1911]

A little explanation on GFCI breakers.

They have more wires because they are more than just a breaker. They do act as a breaker, for 20 amps in this case, but they also

So you have more wires. Yes, you have two in, two out, and maybe the bare copper safety ground if it's not a panel mounted GFCI. In a non-GFCI breaker you have only one in and one out.

Thank you for such a clear description of the GFCI breakers. Immensely better than I found on the 'net.

Cheers,
Richard

[RG1911]

I'd go ahead and take it apart. Ya ain't got anything to lose anyway.

It might just need a switch or thermostat kind of something you could put on even it's not original.

I have a drill press that the switch went bad on and couldn't be replaced.
I connected the two switch wires together, glued a plastic outlet box on the front above the switch bracket,
and put a regular home light switch in it.

The cord is about 6" shorter, and It isn't pretty, but it's safe and works.

Your drill press sounds exactly like mine.

I managed to melt the lead but I had to pour it into molds from the top. A little messy but got the job done.

It appears that the thing is put together with small pop rivets. As you pointed out, I have nothing to lose, so I'll drill them out and disassemble the pot. (Somewhere I think I have a Lee Production pot, but it may still be in one of the storage containers. So I sincerely hope I can get this puppy running again.)

Not being an electrician, I'm not sure how I'd go about finding a problem, especially since it takes 20+ minutes before it quits the first time. Once restarted, it clicks off within 2 minutes. So, heating element? Thermostat?

Cheers,
Richard

[TD1886]

....and if all that isn't enough we haven't even discussed AFCI's LOL

[Winger Ed.]

heating element? Thermostat?

Just a guess, but I'm going with thermostat.
Whatever part is bad, it's usually pretty visible or with a quick check with a multi-meter.

It sounds like the heating element is doing what its supposed to.
I don't use one, but you might check into one of those PID things a lot of guys use.
It does the job of a thermostat, and if the element is good, you should be able to bypass the one inside the pot.

If the element is good, get back here and I'm sure somebody will walk ya through the PID install.
I think there's even guys here that make & sell them.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

SNIP>>>

Not being an electrician, I'm not sure how I'd go about finding a problem, especially since it takes 20+ minutes before it quits the first time. Once restarted, it clicks off within 2 minutes. So, heating element? Thermostat?

Since none of us armchair electricians are there to see what's happening, So maybe go into more precise details of what's happening now and maybe we will be more help.
Are standard breakers tripping? or RCBS pot shutting itself off. Is there a click or does it just shut off? The on/off switch is illuminated isn't it? Does the light in the switch stay on when the unit shuts off?
These are some of the things that could help. Try to convey any little detail of what's happening.

In the second link I posted, Walter ended up having a defective switch, so maybe you have the same?

[RG1911]

Since none of us armchair electricians are there to see what's happening, So maybe go into more precise details of what's happening now and maybe we will be more help.
Are standard breakers tripping? or RCBS pot shutting itself off. Is there a click or does it just shut off? The on/off switch is illuminated isn't it? Does the light in the switch stay on when the unit shuts off?
These are some of the things that could help. Try to convey any little detail of what's happening.

In the second link I posted, Walter ended up having a defective switch, so maybe you have the same?

Standard breakers are not tripping.

While I have a multi-meter, unless I'm looking for voltage, I confess I haven't the faintest idea what to test.

The sequence of events is:

- Pot stays on for approximately 20-25 minutes.
- There is a click and the power light (On-Off switch) goes out.
- After approximately 5 minutes, the switch can be toggled back to On.
- The pot will remain on for about 10 minutes.
- Again a click and the power light goes off.
- Let sit for 5 minutes and toggle power back on.
- After only 2 minutes, the pot clicks and the power light goes off.

This was just enough time for the 20 pounds of alloy to melt so I could empty the pot into a muffin pan.

I disassembled the pot by grinding out all the pop rivets. I've attached a picture of the inside of the control area. Despite having the name and model number of the Jumo thermostat, I was unable to find a match with the temperature range. Also, the Jumo thermostats that I did find were in the $170-200 range. I tried finding an equivalent in a different brand, with absolutely no success.

Perhaps someone knows if there is a reasonably-priced replacement for the Jumo. If not, I think a Lee Pro 4-20 for $90 would take care of my immediate need.

Thank you, Richard

[Winger Ed.]

Hmmm.

If you hear the switch click,,,, I'd jump the two wires for it together, plug it in and go from there.

As Red Green would say:
Now this isn't a permanent solution,,,,,,, unless it works.

If it is indeed the thermostat- plug the switch back in and check out those PIDs a lot of guys use.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

It sounds like the switch is acting normal and not wonky like was talked about in the other threads with defective switches. I have to believe the click is a normal sound coming from the Jumo, probably a relay opening the power circuit to the Heating element. I think, either the Jumo control has become defective or the Jumo thermocouple (copper tubing thingy that measures pot temp) has become defective(which is common in home furnace controls)...and that particular thermocouple doesn't look like it's replaceable. Now, I'm no expert on GFCI, but my best guess is if the thermocouple was defective, I wouldn't think that would trip a GCFI circuit breaker...unless just the action of the Jumo disconnecting the power to the heating element would trip a GFCI? Other smarter members that are retired electricians might know those details.
.
I think this pot has become a candidate for a PID. Building a PID is an easy project if you are somewhat familiar with electricity and electronics. There have been numerous threads posted about doing it, so there is good instructions and people here to help by answering questions, once you source the parts your need.
.
If you are sure you can't build one your self, then "Hatch" makes a plug-n-play PID for any functioning lead furnace. Since your RCBS isn't functioning properly, you'd need to disconnect the Jumo's power wires and connect them together, I'd also do the same with the power switch, that will basically hot wire the pot's heating element to run constantly 100% of the time. Hatch's plug-n-play PID plugs into a wall outlet, and the RCBS pot will plug into Hatch's PID. You then have to find a way to mount Hatch's thermocouple, so it's submerged into the molten alloy. The PID then controls everything.

[RG1911]

Hmmm.

If you hear the switch click,,,, I'd jump the two wires for it together, plug it in and go from there.

As Red Green would say:
Now this isn't a permanent solution,,,,,,, unless it works.

If it is indeed the thermostat- plug the switch back in and check out those PIDs a lot of guys use.

Hmmm... Interesting. I will give this some thought. In other words, if I still hear a click and the pot quits, it would be a more clear indication that the thermostat was faulty.

Cheers, Richard

[Winger Ed.]

Yeah, it's a pretty simple system, and which ever component has failed, it will tell you its bad.