4 GG money bullet

[RobP1]

I have a 4 grease groove money bullet with the front band reduced. When using a lubrisizer, if I'm careful I can get all 4 grooves lubed. But because of the reduced front band there are times when I get lube on the nose of the bullet. Of course I can wipe it off but that's even more time consuming. And I know I could just pan lube but that's what I'm trying to get away from. So my question is...Can I just lube 3 of the 4 grooves and leave one groove without lube. That groove isn't seated in the case anyway. Thanks, Rob

[country gent]

Depends on several things barrel length, black or smokeless powder and how hard your pushing them. I normally dont lube exposed grooves.
With true black powder the lube not only lubricates the bullet but keeps the fouling soft.

[winelover]

Are you sure the first groove is a lube groove and not a crimping groove? However, it shouldn't be an issue leaving the lube out on groove of a multi grooved bullet. I do it sometimes and accuracy has not suffered, nor has the barrel leaded. Only way to find out is to try it.

Winelover.

[RobP1]

The bullet is a 40 cal. 420 gr. money bullet. The barrel is a 30" 14 twist .40-65 load will be Swiss 1.5 https://castboolits.gunloads.com/ass...2&d=1662034693

[Chill Wills]

The bullet is a 40 cal. 420 gr. money bullet. The barrel is a 30" 14 twist .40-65 load will be Swiss 1.5 https://castboolits.gunloads.com/ass...2&d=1662034693

That empty GG on a BPCR bullet "could" collapse upon firing, giving you an unwanted nose slump off the centerline. Not good for accuracy considering the range you shoot this in a match. The true Money Bullet is a tapered design and you stated yours is. Pan lubing is always the best way to go with tapered BPCR bullets. I know you said you want to avoid doing that. Why? Fast and zero mess. Don't let anyone talk you into using a lube cake cutter. That's not the way.

[gwpercle]

Of course you can lube just 3 of the 4 grease grooves !
My rifle experience is with smokeless powder ( not black ) and with a good modern lube 3 grooves will usually be plenty .
If not ... change to another , better preforming lube .
Besides if that top groove isn't seated inside the case it's going to pick up "grit" and such and you don't want that .
Good lubes with modern ingredients don't require as much as older lubes of beef tallow , mutton fat and beeswax ... I like one made of Beeswax and Lithium Grease ( Lithi-Bee )
It doesn't take much to keep the lead out .
Gary

[Chill Wills]

He is shooting Black Powder...
It is a different set of rules.

[RobP1]

how bout I load a harder allow say 16-1 to avoid nose slump? also keep in mind that top band is reduced so that top groove isn't holding as much lube as the rest.

[country gent]

I would give it a test with the one groove empty and watch for these things accuracy, leading and hard fouling.
I shoot a 40-65 with 30" barrel Old west nasa bullet at 400 grns from 20-1 over olde ensforde powder at around 1200 fps with no issues of leading or hard fouling and exceptional accuracy
I use either emmerts improved or spg for lube. With either I think you will be good
When testing look for the lube star if it starts forming in 4-5 rounds you should be good

[RobP1]

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, I'm using Swiss BPCR White Label lube its from LS Stuff

[Chill Wills]

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, I'm using Swiss BPCR White Label lube its from LS Stuff

You will do Okay. This is fun stuff!
Using the 16-1 alloy is a good idea. If you weren't before, use it if you have it. Not all bullet designs need 16-1 but that 40 cal. long nosed money bullet will be more accurate using the harder alloy, no mater anything else.

When loading for accuracy, you just want to give yourself all the benefits. Leaving a groove empty means something is going to fill it. If not lube, it will be lead. It is hydraulics. Recovered bullets have showed us. The targets have showed us.

Even the 16-1 lead is plastic upon firing. The lead that moves into the empty groove comes from somewhere. Now your perfect bullet going in the chamber is shaped very different after the big red light comes on behind it.

Pan lubing is your friend. There are two ways to do it - clean and messy. Clean pan lubing is easy.

[indian joe]

That empty GG on a BPCR bullet "could" collapse upon firing, giving you an unwanted nose slump off the centerline. Not good for accuracy considering the range you shoot this in a match. The true Money Bullet is a tapered design and you stated yours is. Pan lubing is always the best way to go with tapered BPCR bullets. I know you said you want to avoid doing that. Why? Fast and zero mess. Don't let anyone talk you into using a lube cake cutter. That's not the way.

I always used a cookie cutter - only way I can get the boolits out with all grooves full - have read the push em outa the cake story and tried it - abject failure .....
You made a statement of fact here so must believe the cookie cutter has some negative effect on accuracy ???????????
Eddicate me please - have learnt lots of stuff here but this one has me bamboozled
1) lube mixture ? (mine is obviously unsuitable for the excercise despite it does the job quite well on the boolit and in the barrel)
2) technique for doing this without the cookie cutter? (also obviously have missed something here too)

Always interested in anything that might turn a 9 into a 10 (or a 4 into a 5)

ps have one boolit I load with a grease groove (filled) out the case - store em in decent clean packet till shot dont seem to be an issue picking up grit.

[Chill Wills]

I always used a cookie cutter - only way I can get the boolits out with all grooves full - have read the push em outa the cake story and tried it - abject failure .....
You made a statement of fact here so must believe the cookie cutter has some negative effect on accuracy ???????????
Eddicate me please - have learnt lots of stuff here but this one has me bamboozled
1) lube mixture ? (mine is obviously unsuitable for the excercise despite it does the job quite well on the boolit and in the barrel)
2) technique for doing this without the cookie cutter? (also obviously have missed something here too)

Always interested in anything that might turn a 9 into a 10 (or a 4 into a 5)

ps have one boolit I load with a grease groove (filled) out the case - store em in decent clean packet till shot dont seem to be an issue picking up grit.

-----------------------------------------
You write:
have read the push em outa the cake story and tried it - abject failure .....
My response in red: You need a better lube

You made a statement of fact here so must believe the cookie cutter has some negative effect on accuracy ???????????
No-No. Not accuracy. The cutter makes a big mess and keeps people from pan-lubing bullet. I would quit pan-lubing too if it made a big mess.
1) lube mixture ? (mine is obviously unsuitable for the excercise despite it does the job quite well on the boolit and in the barrel)
2) technique for doing this without the cookie cutter? (also obviously have missed something here too)
I am sure your lube works fine for the shooting part. With the correct lube, of which there are many, you can easily push the tapered bullets or reduced band bullets out from the lube cake, pushing the nose down into the cake and the base out first and have them be perfect - lube where it should be and none, as in "none" where it shouldn't be.
I hope to have more time after next weekend and we can pick it up again then if you or anyone is interested.

[RobP1]

I may have come up with a way to lube the reduced band bullet with the lubrisizer. I don't size my bullets in the lubrisizer so I'm running a .410 bullet into a .410 die. the bullet measures .399 at the ogive. I just put a small piece of blue painters tape around the nose of the bullet. Run it through the lubrisizer until all grease grooves are filled then just pull the tape off. If there is any spill over on the nose of the bullet it comes off with the tape. so far it seems to be working I'm using the slim 1/4" wide tape so there's not a lot of bulk up on the bullet nose.

[indian joe]

-----------------------------------------
You write:
have read the push em outa the cake story and tried it - abject failure .....
My response in red: You need a better lube

You made a statement of fact here so must believe the cookie cutter has some negative effect on accuracy ???????????
No-No. Not accuracy. The cutter makes a big mess and keeps people from pan-lubing bullet. I would quit pan-lubing too if it made a big mess.
1) lube mixture ? (mine is obviously unsuitable for the excercise despite it does the job quite well on the boolit and in the barrel)
2) technique for doing this without the cookie cutter? (also obviously have missed something here too)
I am sure your lube works fine for the shooting part. With the correct lube, of which there are many, you can easily push the tapered bullets or reduced band bullets out from the lube cake, pushing the nose down into the cake and the base out first and have them be perfect - lube where it should be and none, as in "none" where it shouldn't be.
I hope to have more time after next weekend and we can pick it up again then if you or anyone is interested.

Thanks for the reply
messy ? yeah but ..............I have that mostly under control . I use a push through cookie cutter 2 or 3 boolit lengths so as they pop out the top I pick them (thumb and forefinger) and set them on a piece of card on the bench,

when I go to load I have a flannelette pad on the bench one half damp with WD40 and one half dry, wipe boolit base on the damp bit then wipe/dry off, pop him in the case - HDPE wads are coming off clean at muzzle exit - as far as I can figure - pick em up out about where a ML patch would land

I am loading with pretty much zero neck tension and a light crimp

If there is obvious gunk on the nose I proly wipe that off with a damp rag (WD40) before goes in the seating die - this is likely the messy bit you are talking of and with some of the cookie cutters I have seen - any cutter where you push the boolit back out the way it came - sure = big time messy.

the seating die eventually gets gunked up but usually can get 100 before it needs a cleanout

always wipe the rounds over when I am done loading - damp rag then dry one

I dont shoot big matches - most of it is at home on my practice range or ten shot paper matches at our local club - so also load in small lots . I have several small lube pans that hold 25 boolits - cookie cut them out a bit careful and can set the next lot back in the holes, add a little nub of lube and then re melt with a hot air gun - of all the tricks I have picked up in 50years of cast loading this one is the best - I am impatient - double boilers and such + too much hurry and always you end up overheating the lube (beeswax part gets darker everytime you make it too hot) the air gun doesnt do that - its quick and easy (I set the pan on a cork placemat so I dont burn the benchtop) and can do them as I need instead of a big pan full and leftover stuff -- so my system - a bit messy yes but not a big deal for me

Still interested in your best lube mix - and If they will push out clean will give it a whirl for sure - I am just using Beeswax and neatsfoot - the last lot of neatsfoot I got did not impress me at all (some synthetic crap in there I reckon or something cheap and nasty as filler).

[country gent]

The design off the cookie cutter makes a big difference in mess and how it works. I make my cutters from thin walled brass tubing. I swage it down to .005-.008 over bullet dia and sharpen only on the inside of the tube. A small ball handle with the hole thru it also. NO ejector just keep pushing and remove bullets out the top when they start to come thru. No muss no fuss. Using this style lube is pushed into the grooves when cut out and held in place in the tube. I have cakes in pans with the holes in them just place the new bullets to be lubed in the holes and remelt. This makes moving tins easier as the cake keeps bullets upright. With the pans I have I can do around 250 45 cal bullets at a time. One trick is to heat past molten not hotter but heat long enough to bring the bullets up to temp and then let cool, The warm bullets helps the lube flow and slow cool lets it shrink into the bullets

[Bent Ramrod]

I always found that when I tried to use Kake Kutters (or the Lee equivalent), anything of sufficient diameter as to not score the side of an occasional boolit left a heavy margin of extra lube on the boolit lands. This, of course, would get on the outside of cases, fill the seating die, and wind up pushing seated boolits deeper and deeper into the cases until the die was removed, taken apart and cleaned out.

So, for the few examples of Pan Lubing I have to endure, I press the boolits out of the cake nose first.

I set the first clutch of boolits into the pan, pour the melted lube to the proper height, warm the pan until all air bubbles disappear, give it another minute to make sure, and then (carefully) pick up the pan and put it into the refrigerator or (if time is of the essence) into the freezer.

Cooling time is critical in the refrigerator, and even more so in the freezer, but a little fumbling at the start and careful observation will eventually reveal the proper dwell time. The solidified lube block has to be hard enough to pick up and push the boolits out of, but still soft enough so the lube shears off and remains in the grooves. A frozen hard block (or even a block left out too long to cool at ambient temperature) will break as the boolits are pressed, and the grooves may indeed wind up empty or partially so.

My black powder lube is typically three parts mutton or lamb tallow to one part beeswax. Someday I’ll try a soupçon of lanolin to see if I can make it a little stickier, but for now, the above method works fine. At least as fine as the mess that entails pan lubing can be. I’m always reminded of Elmer Keith’s description: “As soon as things start going well, my nose starts to itch, and everything gets pretty well lubed by the time the session is over.”

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=country gent;5580843]The design off the cookie cutter makes a big difference in mess and how it works. I make my cutters from thin walled brass tubing. I swage it down to .005-.008 over bullet dia and sharpen only on the inside of the tube. A small ball handle with the hole thru it also. NO ejector just keep pushing and remove bullets out the top when they start to come thru. No muss no fuss. Using this style lube is pushed into the grooves when cut out and held in place in the tube. I have cakes in pans with the holes in them just place the new bullets to be lubed in the holes and remelt.

same same !!!

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=Bent Ramrod;5580908]I always found that when I tried to use Kake Kutters (or the Lee equivalent), anything of sufficient diameter as to not score the side of an occasional boolit left a heavy margin of extra lube on the boolit lands. This, of course, would get on the outside of cases, fill the seating die, and wind up pushing seated boolits deeper and deeper into the cases until the die was removed, taken apart and cleaned out.

I have one of those LEE cutters - my homemade versions are many times better