Astra .40 S&W

[Battis]

I handled an Astra .40 S&W in a shop last week (can't remember the exact model). It was all metal, heavy, and seemed to be well made. I've never fired a .40 S&W round before - the salesman said they're loud, and not a great everyday shooter. I have older Astras that are great guns.
Any opinions on the Astra, or even the .40 S&W round?

[TD1886]

I handled an Astra .40 S&W in a shop last week (can't remember the exact model). It was all metal, heavy, and seemed to be well made. I've never fired a .40 S&W round before - the salesman said they're loud, and not a great everyday shooter. I have older Astras that are great guns.
Any opinions on the Astra, or even the .40 S&W round?

Could this be the pistol?
https://www.genitron.com/Handgun/Ast...0-SW/Variant-1

[engineer401]

I used to shoot 40s when they first came out. I was in my 20s then. The round is high pressure and can snap some if in the wrong lightweight polymer pistol. I had an original S&W and truly enjoyed shooting it especially with medium reloads. the only reason I don't have them anymore is I never fully appreciated semi-autos and went back to revolvers. If the price is right and it feels good, give it a try. Brass is plentiful.

[El Bibliotecario]

I've used the .40S&W round in Glocks and disagree with the salesman that it is overly loud and not a great everyday shooter.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Opinions--yeah! I've got an Astra A-80. I'll bet the model you were looking at was an A-100, about 99% the same pistol. I read about the A-80 (.45 ACP) in a gun rag when they were first imported. They are basically an all-steel version of the SIG P-20, which is light weight alloy framed. I was able to procure and shoot an early P-20, but the Browning-branded version which when it first came out was highly sought after. After a few months I traded it off to a Deputy Sheriff who desired it. The dealer that sold it to me was amazed that I'd let go of it and asked why. I found the pistol too light, but at the same time too bulky, although it was a great, accurate shooter. As already stated, then I read about the Astra A-80 and really wanted one because I thought that it being all steel and of the same design it would be the perfect pistol.

Nobody had them in stock, but I did see one at a gun show in Aurora, CO, in 1982. Naturally, being at a gun show the price was way too high, so I passed on it. But later, in 1986, after I'd gotten an FFL, I had a USAF SPO client who had an A-80 and wanted to trade it for an S&W Mod. 19 NIB. We did the deal, and I took the A-80 to the range. I probably shot 200 rounds through it, and my assessment was that it was reliable, but only semi-accurate. I could keep all rounds in the central kill zone of a silhouette target, but could not get a nice group. As said, they were all in the kill zone, but here and there and not particularly centered. I have since, over the past 35 years, heard many similar reports and never heard one that touted superior accuracy. But, because it is a neat gun, and because it's a .45, and because I'm a collector of Spanish pistols, and because the Astra Co. is no more, I've kept it.

Moving on now to the .40 S&W cartridge, it's an o.k. cartridge, but probably fading fast. It will never completely go away, because for awhile it was the go-to police caliber, and just because so many were and are still being made. Many departments still use it, but the trend is back to the 9mm Parabellum which has been upgraded in bullet and load design so as to become the 40's equal. As 9mm pistols can be designed to hold a couple-few more rounds they find favor with the shoot and pray society, be they good or bad people. I think the .40 S&W is good, but the .45 is perhaps just a smidgen better at what they do, and the new 9mms are as good. My nightstand pistol is a Llama Max-1 in .40 S&W, so I do have faith in the .40.

So, in summary, a pistol with a reputation for reliability, but only combat accuracy, in a cartridge that has perhaps seen its day, but still works as well as when designed.

My opinions.

DG


Click to enlarge.

[Battis]

I think it caught my eye because it is an Astra. Without trying, I found that I'm also collecting Spanish guns. That, and I never had (or fired) a .40 S&W round. The price seemed reasonable (can't remember the exact price but it was around $300). Time for a second look.

[44MAG#1]

I have a Glock M27 40 S&W and a Springfield XDm 4.5. 40 S&W.
I like the 40 S&W.
When recoil comes up I chuckle to myself.
Unless someone has physical impairment, which could cause a problem with recoil, recoil of a 40 S&W 10MM, 45 Auto should be not problem.
If it is stay with no more than standard pressure 38 Special.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I have a Glock 22 in .40 S&W. I like it. The recoil is not objectionable.
I have a Glock 21 in .45 ACP. I like to shoot it, but it's bulky to carry.
I agree that .38 Specials are just about right.

DG

[TD1886]

Opinions--yeah! I've got an Astra A-80. I'll bet the model you were looking at was an A-100, about 99% the same pistol. I read about the A-80 (.45 ACP) in a gun rag when they were first imported. They are basically an all-steel version of the SIG P-20, which is light weight alloy framed. I was able to procure and shoot an early P-20, but the Browning-branded version which when it first came out was highly sought after. After a few months I traded it off to a Deputy Sheriff who desired it. The dealer that sold it to me was amazed that I'd let go of it and asked why. I found the pistol too light, but at the same time too bulky, although it was a great, accurate shooter. As already stated, then I read about the Astra A-80 and really wanted one because I thought that it being all steel and of the same design it would be the perfect pistol.

Nobody had them in stock, but I did see one at a gun show in Aurora, CO, in 1982. Naturally, being at a gun show the price was way too high, so I passed on it. But later, in 1986, after I'd gotten an FFL, I had a USAF SPO client who had an A-80 and wanted to trade it for an S&W Mod. 19 NIB. We did the deal, and I took the A-80 to the range. I probably shot 200 rounds through it, and my assessment was that it was reliable, but only semi-accurate. I could keep all rounds in the central kill zone of a silhouette target, but could not get a nice group. As said, they were all in the kill zone, but here and there and not particularly centered. I have since, over the past 35 years, heard many similar reports and never heard one that touted superior accuracy. But, because it is a neat gun, and because it's a .45, and because I'm a collector of Spanish pistols, and because the Astra Co. is no more, I've kept it.

Moving on now to the .40 S&W cartridge, it's an o.k. cartridge, but probably fading fast. It will never completely go away, because for awhile it was the go-to police caliber, and just because so many were and are still being made. Many departments still use it, but the trend is back to the 9mm Parabellum which has been upgraded in bullet and load design so as to become the 40's equal. As 9mm pistols can be designed to hold a couple-few more rounds they find favor with the shoot and pray society, be they good or bad people. I think the .40 S&W is good, but the .45 is perhaps just a smidgen better at what they do, and the new 9mms are as good. My nightstand pistol is a Llama Max-1 in .40 S&W, so I do have faith in the .40.

So, in summary, a pistol with a reputation for reliability, but only combat accuracy, in a cartridge that has perhaps seen its day, but still works as well as when designed.

My opinions.

DG


Click to enlarge.

The 40 S&W is dead. You should see the police trade ins at Aim Surplus for example. Dirt cheap prices too. Even the ballistician and forensic scientist at one time Allan Jones said it was dead.

I'm a little lost at you saying you think the 45acp is a smidgen better then the 40 S&W, but go on to say the 9mm is as good. I don't think so and that is just my opinion. I can't see what the police aren't satisfied with it. When some agencies used the 10mm they thought it was too much. The 40 S&W seemed to be just about right. I believe it beats the low velocity police loads that I believe Federal made at one time.

[Texas by God]

I think that you will see as many 9mm trade in pistols as you will .40 trade ins on AIM’s list.
It’s not as popular as it was, but it’s a good cartridge.
A 180 gr .40 bullet at 900 fps will not be matched by a 9mm. It just won’t.
I only have one; a S&W Shield 40 2.0- and I really like it. Compact, powerful, and accurate.
In the past I had a Glock 22 and a SIG 2022 in 40 S&W, but I never really warmed up to them(the pistols).
My brother had an Astra A 80 in .38 Super.
Well made, well finished, and it shot ok- not great- like DG said.
The Old Astra models 400, 600, and 300 pistols were made as well as Colts or Lugers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[shooting on a shoestring]

40 S&W louder than 9mm??? Ha! I don’t think so,
Both have the same SAAMI map chamber pressure of 35,000 psi.
So it reasonable to expect the muzzle pressures and hence muzzle reports to be similar.

40 dead? No more dead than 9mm in the 1960’s or again in the 1990’s.

40 S&W vs in 9mm in similar pistols will have a bit more recoil, and likewise a bit more wound cavity. But nothing to get excited about. It’s about like comparing 22 Long to 22 Long Rifle.

Right now the political flavor has swung back to the cheaper 9mm ammo. So….lots of bargains in 40 S&W used pistols. It’s a good time to get one or two. In a short couple of decades people will be talking fondly of when you could get a good used 40 for only a few hundred dollars. Sort of like people now wishing they’d bought some of those really great Model 10 police trade-ins in the 1970’s when PD’s went to the wonder nines.

[TD1886]

40 S&W louder than 9mm??? Ha! I don’t think so,
Both have the same SAAMI map chamber pressure of 35,000 psi.
So it reasonable to expect the muzzle pressures and hence muzzle reports to be similar.

40 dead? No more dead than 9mm in the 1960’s or again in the 1990’s.

40 S&W vs in 9mm in similar pistols will have a bit more recoil, and likewise a bit more wound cavity. But nothing to get excited about. It’s about like comparing 22 Long to 22 Long Rifle.

Right now the political flavor has swung back to the cheaper 9mm ammo. So….lots of bargains in 40 S&W used pistols. It’s a good time to get one or two. In a short couple of decades people will be talking fondly of when you could get a good used 40 for only a few hundred dollars. Sort of like people now wishing they’d bought some of those really great Model 10 police trade-ins in the 1970’s when PD’s went to the wonder nines.

The 40 is going the way of the 357 Sig. I believe what kept the 9mm alive is it's higher magazine capacity, mild recoil, and much better bullets. I don't think your comparison of the 9mm and the 40 being like the 22 Long and 22 Long Rifle. I feel the 40 is and can be a much more effect round then the 9mm. Most things today are spray and pray, but you can have high capacity of all calibers up to and including the 45acp in Glock type pistols.

BTW I get emails (more then one) everyday from Aim and other dealers like them and the 40's for sale far out weight the 9mm's. Another thing of you know of any used brass dealers, as I do, you'll see that almost practically give 40 brass away compared to the other calibers. I'm sitting on a box of 600 once fired 40's that were given to me. It's not worth it to sell it cheap to anyone because of the cost of shipping exceeds what it's worth. Like I said it's a good cartridge.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I guess in the end it all boils down to opinions, which is what the man asked for, and as what I labelled mine. Here's a few more of them:

The history of the .40 S&W, as everyone knows, was because the FBI and others adopted the 10mm and it was found to be too much for accurate rapid repeat shots, especially by female officers. So it was replaced by the .40 S&W which is a downsized 10 mm. Everyone thought it was the cat's meow because it would fit into 9mm sized pistol frames and was a 4 instead of a 9. But some of the police and self-defense loadings became pretty hot and the recoil problem for the diminutive returned. Shooting a white box of Win. .40 FMJ range ammo is noticeably different from shooting Fed. Hydra-Shok like I keep in my bedside Llama. However, the 9mm has proven itself to be pretty devastating on human flesh what with the modern day offerings with bullets like the Hydra-Shok, Gold Dot, Golden Saber, etc., and as stated before the pistols designed for the 9mm hold a few more rounds. I have no doubt that the female officers that didn't like the .40 also dislike the hotter 9mms, but the choice has not been offered for them to return to the S&W Mod. 10.

Again, about the .40 S&W dying, it will always be around to a greater or lesser extent, just like the .45-70 and .45 Colt. But it is gradually losing out as the frontline cartridge. That does not mean that you should not own one, love it, and sing its praises. Again, my opinion about the .45 doing a bit better job than the .40 is opinion, based somewhat on the Marshall & Sanow shooting reports. The 230 gr. JHP is bigger than the 180 gr. JHP and there are hot .45 loads which I avoid. You know what opinions are worth, right? And that everyone has one.


Click to enlarge.

Is bigger better? Guess just fossils like me think that way.

DG

The attached thumbnails, which I did not intend to attach: First photo, top is the bedside .40 S&W Llama. The two below it, just in case someone is interested from a collector viewpoint are the .45 ACP Max-1 produced when the company was still in Victoria, Spain. The bottom pistol is from after the company was reorganized and moved to Legutiano, Spain, rebranded and stamped as "Firestorm" but the same pistol. Probably among the last produced. The 2nd photo is one of my favorite Llama .45s, a Max-1 with high polish blue and satin chrome accents, custom 4S Brand fancy walnut grips.

[TD1886]

I guess in the end it all boils down to opinions, which is what the man asked for, and as what I labelled mine. Here's a few more of them:

The history of the .40 S&W, as everyone knows, was because the FBI and others adopted the 10mm and it was found to be too much for accurate rapid repeat shots, especially by female officers. So it was replaced by the .40 S&W which is a downsized 10 mm. Everyone thought it was the cat's meow because it would fit into 9mm sized pistol frames and was a 4 instead of a 9. But some of the police and self-defense loadings became pretty hot and the recoil problem for the diminutive returned. Shooting a white box of Win. .40 FMJ range ammo is noticeably different from shooting Fed. Hydra-Shok like I keep in my bedside Llama. However, the 9mm has proven itself to be pretty devastating on human flesh what with the modern day offerings with bullets like the Hydra-Shok, Gold Dot, Golden Saber, etc., and as stated before the pistols designed for the 9mm hold a few more rounds. I have no doubt that the female officers that didn't like the .40 also dislike the hotter 9mms, but the choice has not been offered for them to return to the S&W Mod. 10.

Again, about the .40 S&W dying, it will always be around to a greater or lesser extent, just like the .45-70 and .45 Colt. But it is gradually losing out as the frontline cartridge. That does not mean that you should not own one, love it, and sing its praises. Again, my opinion about the .45 doing a bit better job than the .40 is opinion, based somewhat on the Marshall & Sanow shooting reports. The 230 gr. JHP is bigger than the 180 gr. JHP and there are hot .45 loads which I avoid. You know what opinions are worth, right? And that everyone has one.


Click to enlarge.

Is bigger better? Guess just fossils like me think that way.

DG

The attached thumbnails, which I did not intend to attach: First photo, top is the bedside .40 S&W Llama. The two below it, just in case someone is interested from a collector viewpoint are the .45 ACP Max-1 produced when the company was still in Victoria, Spain. The bottom pistol is from after the company was reorganized and moved to Legutiano, Spain. Probably among the last produced.
The 2nd photo is one of my favorite Llama .45s, a Max-1 with high polish blue and satin chrome accents, custom 4S Brand fancy walnut grips.

You missed the inbetween the 10 and 40. That's when Federal made a reduced velocity/power load for the 10mm. The 10 was a large pistol. Another cartridge that appeared to have the same fate is the 41 Magnum. They thought it was going to be "the" police cartrigde. Turns out it didn't catch on for that. It's fate looked dim, but it's smothering embers caught fire again and it's enjoying a come back. Just as the 10mm is enjoying even a larger come back. Just like the case of the 30 Super. Everyone was/is raving it. I was on a forum where they praised it. I told them we already have the 7.62x25 Tokarev. Know what their replies were? That the 30 Super held a couple more rounds. Remember back a few posts ago here, spray and pray???

[Battis]

Nice looking handguns.
I do like this Astra, and the .40 S&W is intriguing. The fact that it's falling out of favor, but still available for reloading, is a plus to me. I'll have a second look Tuesday.
Handgun recoil doesn't bother me (some rifles do). I was told that the CZ52 was a snappy gun, but it's one of my favorite shooters. My S&W .38 Airweight is terrible to shoot, but it's great to carry.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Wow...I'm having to put forth a lot of opinions today. Well, the best I can comment on your comments are that the in between10mms and 40s aren't too much different than the in between loadings for .38 Special and .357 Magnum. There's hotter, even +P and +P+ in both calibers. So I'm just trying to address the standard factory loads--what the average shooter encounters on the gun shop shelves.

Now as for the .41 Magnum, it was always relegated to revolvers (just wait--someone out there has a .41 Mag. semi-auto!) and when revolvers passed from the police scene the .41 went with it. There were also complaints about its recoil from the fair sex. Said to be a great handgun hunting cartridge. I owned one until recently, but when I did last year's big selloff to finance my new well it went to the auction. I rarely shot it, and usually with reduced loads. I don't really miss it, as this late in life I've decided that the .38 Spec. and the .45 ACP suit me just fine and meet all of my needs. Well, I do mess around with .22s also! Love those German and Italian 1911 copy .22s.

Believing honesty to be the best policy, I have to admit that I know very little about the .30 Super. Have not held or fired one, only know what I've read in various publications. Candidly, it seems like another cartridge that didn't really have a slot crying out for it to fit into. Might be gone in a few years from popularity, like the .45 GAP. From that limited perspective it seems to me that the 9mm is a better choice. I did own Tokarev and CZ-52 pistols that also departed last year. I always admired their penetration ability. So many guns, so little time.........

DG

[44MAG#1]

In my Glock M27 I like the Hornady 200 XTP WITH Hodgdons max charge of Longshot.
Also a 200 gr cast FP with the same charge.
Both run slightly north of 900 FPS from the Glock. Recoil isn't a bother.

[TD1886]

I've never handled a Llama. I hope a Llama .45, or any caliber Llama, does not show up locally, because I'd want one. Nice looking handguns.
I do like this Astra, and the .40 S&W is intriguing. The fact that it's falling out of favor, but still available for reloading, is a plus to me. I'll have a second look Tuesday.
Handgun recoil doesn't bother me (some rifles do). I was told that the CZ52 was a snappy gun, but it's one of my favorite shooters. My S&W .38 Airweight is terrible to shoot, but it's great to carry.

I can tell you this about the early Llama's in 45acp in the time period around the early 80's. I use to build and tune 1911's. A friend bought a Llama and asked me to tune it. I did, I tightened up the slide to frame fit, plus the barrel to slide fit, and worked the trigger. I was shocked at the results. It shoot along side one of tuned 1911's. With that said I'll tell you the only hard steel in the Llama at that time was sear. The rest of the pistol has soft steel. So it probably wouldn't hold a good tune job for long, but good enough for the average shooter. Just as Astra, Llama made better quality pistols that went to the military. There are no flys on those.

[TD1886]

Wow...I'm having to put forth a lot of opinions today. Well, the best I can comment on your comments are that the in between10mms and 40s aren't too much different than the in between loadings for .38 Special and .357 Magnum. There's hotter, even +P and +P+ in both calibers. So I'm just trying to address the standard factory loads--what the average shooter encounters on the gun shop shelves.

Now as for the .41 Magnum, it was always relegated to revolvers (just wait--someone out there has a .41 Mag. semi-auto!) and when revolvers passed from the police scene the .41 went with it. There were also complaints about its recoil from the fair sex. Said to be a great handgun hunting cartridge. I owned one until recently, but when I did last year's big selloff to finance my new well it went to the auction. I rarely shot it, and usually with reduced loads. I don't really miss it, as this late in life I've decided that the .38 Spec. and the .45 ACP suit me just fine and meet all of my needs. Well, I do mess around with .22s also! Love those German and Italian 1911 copy .22s.

Believing honesty to be the best policy, I have to admit that I know very little about the .30 Super. Have not held or fired one, only know what I've read in various publications. Candidly, it seems like another cartridge that didn't really have a slot crying out for it to fit into. Might be gone in a few years from popularity, like the .45 GAP. From that limited perspective it seems to me that the 9mm is a better choice. I did own Tokarev and CZ-52 pistols that also departed last year. I always admired their penetration ability. So many guns, so little time.........

DG

Well DG there kind of is a 41 mag semi pistol and that's either a Glock or a 1911 with a 6 inch barrel and hot loads. Preferrably the 1911's will have a ramped fully supported chamber. I'm not saying that a 41 mag revolver won't beat it, but the 10mm comes mighty close. You are aware that the hunter Razor Dobbs killed two cape buffalo's with a five inch 1911. I belive it may have been a Dan Wesson and he was using heavy hard cast alloy bullets. He shot clean through one broadside heart shot, the second one he didn't know where the slug went. Both went a few yard and were done. Yes he has a professional big game hunter with a big magnum rifle for back up.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

I bought an S&W M&P 40 police trade-in because it was cheap. I liked it, then got a SIG P226 Trade-in which I like very much. I have a S&W Shield 9, a couple XDm 9's, and half dozen 1911 45's various frame sizes, aluminum and steel, other revolvers, 38 Spcl, .357, 45. I like the 40, it is accurate and easy to load, noise and recoil depend on the load and the gun. Fired brass is cheap, uses small pistol like the 9, my two 40's have fed 155 SWC's and 180 TC without a problem. 40 ammo prices are 'reasonable' and it is available. If I had to choose between a .40 or a 9 to save my life, I would pick the .40 S&W though a .308 (AR10, M14, Ruger SFAR) would be better.