.35 Rem issues

[Krh1326]

Hi all!

I know that it’s ‘Hunting with CAST boolits’ but I have a couple questions for the meat producing wise men.

My state ( NY ) is on the verge of passing a lead ban, for the taking of game, in my area. I am proactively trying to prepare for this, if it should take effect, prior to opening day for white tail.

I have been casting, loading and using Lee 200gr and MP 200 gr with great results. Now with this looming, I’ve started a few alternatives to get going, shooting and testing…. So I haz a couple questions.

I did order, and receive, some of RotoMetals lead free bismuth alloy. I cast up some of both Lee and MP 200’s , they are coming in at 180 grs with gas check and PC. Now, sizing… I’m running a Marlin 336 with the micro grooves. The key to cast lead success, with these micro grooves, was sizing to .359, so lead could really jam into the grooves. I’ve been using Larry Gibson’s soft recipe for this. This Bismuth alloy is a different animal. It’s coming in with a BHN of 19 and it is pretty brittle.
Do you fellas think I should still size to .359, or drop to .358 ?

Next questions are about some Barnes .358 TSX ( all copper hollow point ) 180 grn projectiles, that I was able to get my hands on. I started one , into a case, and chambered it, feeling the bullet push into the case. I took off a touch, to come off the lands and I’m at 2.575 OAL. My Lyman and Lee manuals call for a MAX Cartridge OAL of 2.525. Do I have a problem here? The flat nose profile of the TSX is VERY different from the traditional round soft nose core lokt bullets. Is it ok that I am that far off, as long as it will cycle from tube to chamber? As it sits now, at 2.575 , the bullet base is dead on with case neck/shldr point.

Load Data info is just fine, for this, I have plenty for 180 gr jacketed from both Lee modern reloading and Lyman manuals.

Now for a real oddball, left field question…
Between both my son and myself, I have a box of twenty of Remington 180gr Core Lokt.
If this legislation should pass before opening day, what do you guys think of this notion…
I have a RCBS puller, and a .35 collet. What if I pulled the core lokt projectiles, carefully not spilling any powder, then seating and crimping in the same weight Barnes TSX bullets? I would mark and measure, where the base of the core lokts would have been , just to make sure that I am not altering the case volume, possibly creating a real problem.

I know that I can’t know what exact powder Remington used, but it is metered for a 180 jacketed bullet… What do you think?

Thanks everybody !

[megasupermagnum]

The OAL is no issue. Those are only general guidelines. If it fits in your rifle, you are fine.

I shoot a lot of bismuth shot in shotguns, but that's a different animal. In small pellets it works pretty good. Still bismuth shot is barely as good as the most junk lead shot. The number of successes people have had with bismuth in bullets is extremely slim. The brittleness is the nature of bismuth, and it's a horrible attribute to have for a bullet. Between accuracy issues, and fragmenting bullets, I just don't see bismuth as a viable option for bullets, especially in something like a 35 Remington. Maybe in a 45-70 or something it would at least be workable. I think the people having minor success are running crazy alloys like 60% bismuth 40% tin or something. Zinc is a much better route in my opinion, however, not everyone agrees that it is non-toxic. Zinc is a no go in shotguns for waterfowl, yet as far as I can tell, Zinc bullets are still legal in California. There is no perfect answer at the moment. Nothing really performs as good as lead without there being issues. Even for store bought bullets, copper is the only viable alternative right now, and it isn't without drawbacks. In 35 remington I would expect good results from Barnes copper bullets though, and that is the way I would go.

No, I wouldn't pull those core lokt's and seat a new bullet in there. Pull the bullets, dump the powder, and load them with your own powder.

[Krh1326]

The OAL is no issue. Those are only general guidelines. If it fits in your rifle, you are fine.

I shoot a lot of bismuth shot in shotguns, but that's a different animal. In small pellets it works pretty good. Still bismuth shot is barely as good as the most junk lead shot. The number of successes people have had with bismuth in bullets is extremely slim. The brittleness is the nature of bismuth, and it's a horrible attribute to have for a bullet. Between accuracy issues, and fragmenting bullets, I just don't see bismuth as a viable option for bullets, especially in something like a 35 Remington. Maybe in a 45-70 or something it would at least be workable. Zinc is a much better route in my opinion, however, not everyone agrees that it is non-toxic. Zinc is a no go in shotguns for waterfowl, yet as far as I can tell, Zinc bullets are still legal in California. There is no perfect answer at the moment. Nothing really performs as good as lead without there being issues. Even for store bought bullets, copper is the only viable alternative right now, and it isn't without drawbacks. In 35 remington I would expect good results from Barnes copper bullets though, and that is the way I would go.

Thank you.
May I ask your thoughts about popping the 180 core lokts, out of the factory ammo, and seating the Barnes TSX 180’s?

[Krh1326]

Interesting questions. Based on no experience at all of Bismuth or solid copper bullets, but faced with the same issues, this would be my reasoning.

1. If it's only one opportunity for a shot, I wouldn't want to be risking a mess-up. Solid copper is a proven solution.

2. If Bismuth is brittle, I'd wait for some field reports from others before using it on game.

3. Re COL, the only issues so long as pressure is OK are whether you can get the rifle closed (with some clearance off the rifling), and whether you can eject a loaded round. My Marlin Rippletop won't eject anything over 2.540", but you've done the test and seem to be OK at 2.575". Usual precautions apply feeling your way to a load with the new bullets.

4. My reading is that a pure copper bullet is likely to generate more pressure than a jacketed lead bullet of the same weight, mainly on account of taking up more of the powder space. I would absolutely NOT just substitute copper for jacketed either by pulling or by use of jacketed loading data. Check some of the sources such as Hodgdon for load variances for conventional bullets versus pure copper, if necessary looking at other calibers to see what the differences are.

5. Does the Barnes HP bullet have a soft plastic tip? If not, you might be confined to one cartridge only in the magazine.

6. For the few shots required, I'd maybe just buy some loaded ammo first time around, considering how much $ you will spend just creating the opportunity for a shot.

If you can get some answers from real experience I will take this post down.

Thanks.
My 336 did eject that bullet/ case after being chambered, and pushing bullet into case.
Going by the chambering ( collapse of bullet, into case ) and then adding a touch more , and the bases ending up in same ball park, it appears to me, that with the longer COL, they are making up the weight difference, by growing out the nose of bullet, not the base, impeding case space/ pressure.
No, this TSX version is a large flat nose, no tip, no point. Not likely to have tube ignition.

[Texas by God]

The all copper Barnes bullet will produce higher pressure with the same load as a normal Cor-Lokt bullet- even if the bullet weight is the same.
Dump the powder from the factory shells and use Barnes data for their bullet.
Lead bans are stupid- but that’s what attracts stupid politicians to vote to ban it- I guess.
I didn’t know that 180 gr .35 Remington ammo existed- I’ve only ever seen 150gr(Remington), and 200 gr RN( Federal/Rem/Win).


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[megasupermagnum]

Thank you.
May I ask your thoughts about popping the 180 core lokts, out of the factory ammo, and seating the Barnes TSX 180’s?

I would throw the powder away, and use your own powder.

I did a quick 15 minute reading on the 2023-2024 lead ban you are referring to. A key feature of that bill is that it only pertains to state owned land, or land right around NYC "surface water supply". I'm guessing anywhere even close to NYC is basically useless as far as asking private land owners for permission. If New York has any kind of leasing program, those would be legal to use Core Lokt's. Otherwise any federally owned land like national forest would still be perfectly legal to use lead bullets. I've never been to New York, but I'd much rather be looking at federal or private lands than mess around with bismuth or zinc cast bullets. I have yet to see anything that is remotely as good as a lead cast bullet. The rare exceptions are things like 45-70 or shotgun slugs where zinc can be a perfectly viable option.

Myself, if hunting federal or private land, or hunting out of state was simply not an option, I would be shooting Barnes bullets. They are good bullets, and will perform good in 35 remington. I realize they are 4-5 times the cost of normal jacketed lead bullets, but still, 100 bullets would provide enough practice and hunting ammo, and not be that much more than the cost of gas. I realize that reality sucks, which is why it's so important to keep fighting such ridiculous laws. It gets even harder if you shoot shotgun or rimfires. It might be cheaper both in money and stress to leave New York too.

[Texas by God]

Upstate New York is one of the most beautiful parts of the United States that I have visited.
It’s too bad that it’s tethered to the urban population centers.


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[Krh1326]

It’s not NYC that is affected… it’s a monster huge chunk of the Catskills. That is where their reservoirs are, and many many miles of aqueduct, to the the Rotton Apple. Unfortunately , state, city owned reservoir perimeter and private land is my hunting ground.. and they are all watershed.

Also, Barnes doesn’t offer any load data, for .35 Rem. I wrote to them to ask, and the answer was:
“ Thank you for choosing to shoot Barnes Bullets, all copper bullets. If wanting to use a powder/bullet we do not have load data listed, you can use "other" (jacketed lead core or monolithic) bullet load data when loading a Barnes Bullet of equal (or close to) weight. Using data from HodgdonReloading.com or other sources/powder/bullet manufacturers. JUST BE SURE TO START AT THE MINIMUM STARTING LOAD and work up from there in half grain increments watching for signs of high pressure such as, a sticky (hard) bolt lift when ejecting the fired case, ejector mark on the case head stamp or flattened/leaky primers. Once you notice any of the high pressure signs then you will want to lower the charge about half a grain or so to where no high pressure signs are present, and that would technically be "YOUR" rifle's max load. The load data published by all of the companies is just a reference point/guideline to safely start out at the minimum charges. The MAX charge solely depends on your rifle's chamber, barrel length, powder lot #, brass case capacity/manufacturer and your environmental conditions.

When loading a Barnes TSX, Tipped TSX or LRX bullet, your rifle may prefer a bullet jump of anywhere between .050” up to .250” or more. This distance off the lands (rifling), aka “jump” may be limited to the rifles throat length, magazine length and bullet length.
When selecting the cartridge overall length (COAL) we recommend starting with a minimum “jump” of .050” off the lands. This is the point where your load development should begin. You can then later test different seating depths and find a “sweet spot” that your particular firearm prefers. We suggest working in at least .025” increments as follows seating the bullet deeper to allow a further jump. Your test plan could look something like this:
1st group- .050” jump
2nd group- .075” jump
3rd group- .100” jump
4th group- .125” jump
5th group- .150“ jump
6th group- * see below
This length can be determined by using a “Stoney Point Gauge” or other methods/tools designed to determine your rifles best COAL. You do not have to seat the bullet at, or on one of the cannelure/pressure relief rings. The pressure relief rings have nothing to do with seating depth; ignore them! Remember, there are many factors that may control or limit the seating depth for your application. You may find that you need to start at around 0.150” off the lands and are not able to get any closer due to limiting factors including proper neck tension and magazine length.
*In rifles that have long throats you may be limited on how close you are able to get the bullet to the lands. In these instances, it is not uncommon to find the best accuracy with a jump of .200” or more.
This jump may possibly stay the same regardless of powder or charge weight within a given rifle. If preferred accuracy is not obtained, we certainly recommend trying another powder, for the powder type and charge greatly affects the overall accuracy of each individual firearm.
FYI- An accurate load requires a bullet with the proper consistent case neck tension which leads to more constant pressures and velocities.

Using the two above processes, you can find 180 gr lead core lead data via Hodgdon, Accurate, Alliant, Speer. Just remember to start low and work up.

Thank You
Alan Griffith | Consumer Service
Barnes Bullets”

[Krh1326]

My question about just popping out the core lokt bullets and seating the Barnes, of equal weight, was based on this info, that I got from Barnes, stating that it was OK to use jacketed lead data.

[farmbif]

ive had a 35 rem for at least 30 years and the only 180 grain loads are the ones I put together myself with Speer jacketed flat points.
maybe you buy a box of barnes projectiles for hunting and use cast loads at paper targets. if the ban is a ban on non lead projectiles used for hunting.
I remember back in the 80's all the hoopla when lead shot was banned for hunting ducks and waterfowl. everyone was scrambling to figure out how to load steel shot. and what ammo to use and how the steel shot would destroy treasured old guns.
go back and read American rifleman and other shooting magazines from about 1986, 87, 88. pretty sure those were the years.
anyway I never loaded steel shot. just bought a box or 2 of steel shot ammo for hunting.
but in your case barnes makes some well respected projectiles and has good load data for them

[Krh1326]

My mistake. I blame my eyes. They are Remington 200 gr round nose soft core lokt. Mea Culpa

[farmbif]

those are highly coveted bullets, everyone and their brother wants those 200 grain core lokt's

[BLAHUT]

My question about just popping out the core lokt bullets and seating the Barnes, of equal weight, was based on this info, that I got from Barnes, stating that it was OK to use jacketed lead data.

For myself, I would prefer to start at a lower powder weight and work up, see if there was any pressure showing ?? If pulling the bullets ? then I would weigh the powder charge and start at about 10% lower and see what I had, then work up to the load that was started with ???

[ChristopherO]

My question about just popping out the core lokt bullets and seating the Barnes, of equal weight, was based on this info, that I got from Barnes, stating that it was OK to use jacketed lead data.

Notice, the response from Barnes is " Just remember to start low and work up." There is a reason he added that in at the last. If you are bound and determined to use that pulled powder, back off the weight by 10% and test from there.

And, no, I don't recommend you 'throw that powder away." Instead have some fun with it and show the kids how smokeless powder burns by pouring a line on the ground (that you don't mind having a black burn stain on) and light it on one end. Quite educational and an easy way to dispose of unwanted powder at the same time. Or, pour it all out on your garden. Powder is full of nitrogen, which boosts plants to grow. Had a buddy who worked in an ammo company that would do this for his mother's garden.

[sukivel]

Upstate New York is one of the most beautiful parts of the United States that I have visited.
It’s too bad that it’s tethered to the urban population centers.


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I agree! I was surprised how much I liked the countryside there.


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[ascast]

Upstate New York is one of the most beautiful parts of the United States that I have visited.
It’s too bad that it’s tethered to the urban population centers.


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ya ain't that the truth. Yesterday the Gov ( Hocul) passed a NO NEW GAS STOVE law.

[Krh1326]

Not so much bound and determined to reuse the factory powder and as loaded , was just thinking about quick options. Plus, I’m not so sure that I want to wreck those factory rounds.

Now, I have my Barnes TSX rounds figured out. My COL, my charges to test etc. I’m thinking about the cast Bismuth. I already bought the alloy and cast it. I might as well go ahead and run them, as they are GCd and PCd. Always a good thing to know my options and settle my curiousity if it works. My question still is, should I leave them sized to .359 , as I would soft lead, or because they are very much harder, and brittle, should I run thru .358 sizing die?

[cwlongshot]

Thats a cryin shame. I started my hunting in those mountains above the Rondout reservoir off RT55...

I have never been able to buy those Barnes 180's but my buddy in Indiana has and shoots them in 357 Maxi and his 35 Rem Bolt gun.

CW

[1006]

Well, I know I am a minority here, but I would pop them out and put the Barnes in their place. They are 20 grains lighter, and the Marlin is often said to be plenty strong enough to carry more pressure than the 35 Remington produces.

I am not saying you should, just that I would.

You will have to evaluate your new ballistics/trajectory for sighting purposes.

[Teddy (punchie)]

You can always look at the factory loaded ammo pressure signs.

Then back the powder off by a grain or so maybe two grains. Resize the next only replace factory powder one to two grain short and then seat the new bullet. Then read the pressure signs of the brass and see if you can just pull and neck size and reload.

I don't think I would for a box but maybe for a few boxes.