Accuracy testing standards?

[Bigslug]

Frankly, I read a lot of those same 25 yard accuracy test charts in the '80's and got rather bored with them (and with the magazines in general), as there didn't seem to be much out there that wouldn't hold 4" or better at that range. . .from sandbags. . .in broad daylight. . .with the songbirds singing peacefully in the distance.

That pretty much told me that inside of 20 feet. . .unsupported. . .in the dark. . .with someone trying to kill you, we should be a lot more concerned with "DOES THE DAMN THING WORK???"

One of my prized articles is a 1944-produced 1911-A1 that has all of it's original parts, but is in "this has DEFINITELY seen combat" condition - rattly tolerances, frosty bore, dented rear sight, only about 30% of its Parkerizing left. . .and it will hold a magazine's worth of hardball on a golf ball at ten yards. With that as a yardstick, I lose zero sleep thinking about the ability of a new, CNC-made, Browning-based design - probably with fewer parts - to do as well or better. With very rare exceptions, they all shoot better than we can shoot them.

[Larry Gibson]

Interesting. I would have expected the Contender to do better.

Makes me wonder if the Ransom Rest is anchored well enough. At the range we used for testing, we had a cement pier sunk into the ground as the platform for the RR.

The RR was well anchored to a solid cement bent.....no movement. Out of the Contender 10 shots in 2" +/- at 50 yards with +P ammunition pushing 1300+ fp is pretty darned good IMHO. So was 12 shots of the factory WC out of the S&W M15 at 50 yards. Back in the day when I was shooting PPC the best of tested PPC revolvers ran 1 1/2 - 2" at 50 yards with the same ammo.

[FergusonTO35]

Frankly, I read a lot of those same 25 yard accuracy test charts in the '80's and got rather bored with them (and with the magazines in general), as there didn't seem to be much out there that wouldn't hold 4" or better at that range. . .from sandbags. . .in broad daylight. . .with the songbirds singing peacefully in the distance.

That pretty much told me that inside of 20 feet. . .unsupported. . .in the dark. . .with someone trying to kill you, we should be a lot more concerned with "DOES THE DAMN THING WORK???"

One of my prized articles is a 1944-produced 1911-A1 that has all of it's original parts, but is in "this has DEFINITELY seen combat" condition - rattly tolerances, frosty bore, dented rear sight, only about 30% of its Parkerizing left. . .and it will hold a magazine's worth of hardball on a golf ball at ten yards. With that as a yardstick, I lose zero sleep thinking about the ability of a new, CNC-made, Browning-based design - probably with fewer parts - to do as well or better. With very rare exceptions, they all shoot better than we can shoot them.

This 100%. I gave one of my Glock 42's some exercise this morning. At 10 yards I was easily making knothole groups right where I wanted 'em with all rounds in the mag. Repeatable, over and over no sweat. Hands down, the 42 is my favorite pistol to carry because it just friggin' works for me. I don't care about the "weak" cartridge, relatively low capacity, or lack of a laser/red dot/RMR/whatever is in vogue these days. It does what I need and want it to do and I'm sticking with it.

[JoeJames]

I noticed in this month's American Rifleman where the Dope Bag tested a Korth revolver with, I think, a 2 3/4" barrel. The person testing it stated that their usual protocol for testing a revolver with a barrel that short was at 7 yards - but in the case of the Korth "that would have been cheating" so he tested it at 15 yards. I did not realize that the normal Dope Bag protocol was 7 yards. To me that is awful short.

[44MAG#1]

I noticed in this month's American Rifleman where the Dope Bag tested a Korth revolver with, I think, a 2 3/4" barrel. The person testing it stated that their usual protocol for testing a revolver with a barrel that short was at 7 yards - but in the case of the Korth "that would have been cheating" so he tested it at 15 yards. I did not realize that the normal Dope Bag protocol was 7 yards. To me that is awful short.

That is because everyone knows a person can't hit anything with a short barreled handgun.
That is the reason for 7 yards.

[rintinglen]

Jeff Cooper once opined that a good service gun should shoot three inches or less at 25 meters, but even a gun that only shoots 6 inch groups can still save your life. But better is better. If you know your gun can hit a 3 inch circle every time at 25 yards, it gives you confidence and gives you a standard to work towards. When you can shoot the gun as good as it can shoot, you know your skill set is as good as it can be. If you can't, you know you have some work to do.

[Hiright]

Any gun I buy, I will test from bags at 25yds for accuracy. If it (or me) cannot shoot some type of ammo into 2.5" at that distance, it's going to be sent to the factory or traded away. I went through a few 2.5-3" revolvers before I found one that would do that consistently - Ruger Alaskan .44. The same for any semi autos. I want to know the intrinsic accuracy of a handgun before I begin shooting it offhand. When I see the chart that says "from bags at 7 yards" I shake my head. Yes, the standard used to be 25 yards but I rarely see that these days. Maybe it's followed quality control.

[Good Cheer]

That is because everyone knows a person can't hit anything with a short barreled handgun.
That is the reason for 7 yards.

Except women that bounce cans across the yard with airweight snub noses.
Do they even use the sights?

[44MAG#1]

Except women that bounce cans across the yard with airweight snub noses.
Do they even use the sights?

Well, do they?
Maybe they stand on one leg, spin like a top and hold the gun sideways and hoop and holler. While yanking the trigger.

[Outpost75]

That is because everyone knows a person can't hit anything with a short barreled handgun.
That is the reason for 7 yards.

When I was on the NRA.Tech Staff prior to my going to Ruger in June 1984 25 yards was the standard test distance for handguns. George Martin, who was brought in from Petersen Publishing (Gun & Ammo) loosened the criteria to please advertisers. The rest is history.

Barf.....

[Thumbcocker]

Fwiw in Handloader this month Brian Pearce tested a Rock Island 1911 in 9mm. He got several under 2" at 25 yards. 5 shot groups. In the same issue another author seemed to be over the moon about a one hole 25 yard group from a 92 Winchester .44-40 at 25 yards. Same author talked about the 1858 Springfield using a "patched ball".

[billmc2]

This is a serious question, because I just don't know and I'm trying to learn without a teacher. It has only been in the past couple of years that I now have a place to shoot. Behind my house I can go to 50 yards. Next door, at my neighbor's place we can go out a couple of hundred yards (haven't measured it out yet). Plan on shooting hand guns on mine and rifles on his.

When you guys are talking about off hand shooting, with the groups sizes being discussed, at 25 yards, is this slow fire? Taking time to line up the sights on the bullseye for each shot, or are you shooting as fast as you can get a decent sight picture back?

I've never tried to test the precision of my handguns before. All I've known is what is written recently. I can say a couple of years back, I looked into getting a non resident carry permit for the State of RI. They required the qualification to be shot at 75 feet.

[megasupermagnum]

This is a serious question, because I just don't know and I'm trying to learn without a teacher. It has only been in the past couple of years that I now have a place to shoot. Behind my house I can go to 50 yards. Next door, at my neighbor's place we can go out a couple of hundred yards (haven't measured it out yet). Plan on shooting hand guns on mine and rifles on his.

When you guys are talking about off hand shooting, with the groups sizes being discussed, at 25 yards, is this slow fire? Taking time to line up the sights on the bullseye for each shot, or are you shooting as fast as you can get a decent sight picture back?

I've never tried to test the precision of my handguns before. All I've known is what is written recently. I can say a couple of years back, I looked into getting a non resident carry permit for the State of RI. They required the qualification to be shot at 75 feet.

There's a lot of things talked about on this forum. Originally it was about accuracy testing of handguns, which is done from a bench from either a solid rest or something like a ransom rest. When it comes to offhand, and speed, there's infinite possibilities. You will never be more accurate than the mechanical abilities of your handgun, but beginners are usually doing pretty good to keep shots on paper at 10 yards slow fire. You have to start somewhere. Some of us only carry concealed for defensive purposes, some of us only carry open for hunting purposes, most somewhere in between. The skillset of a hunter and CCW holder are two different things.

As for the CCW qualification, they are meant to be easy. It would be really dumb to require classes that fail students. They are structured so that someone who has only basic safety training can pass.

[pettypace]

This is a serious question, because I just don't know and I'm trying to learn without a teacher. It has only been in the past couple of years that I now have a place to shoot. Behind my house I can go to 50 yards. Next door, at my neighbor's place we can go out a couple of hundred yards (haven't measured it out yet). Plan on shooting hand guns on mine and rifles on his.

When you guys are talking about off hand shooting, with the groups sizes being discussed, at 25 yards, is this slow fire? Taking time to line up the sights on the bullseye for each shot, or are you shooting as fast as you can get a decent sight picture back?

I've never tried to test the precision of my handguns before. All I've known is what is written recently. I can say a couple of years back, I looked into getting a non resident carry permit for the State of RI. They required the qualification to be shot at 75 feet.

I can recommend a tutor. Well, not exactly a tutor, but a textbook: The Textbook of Pistols and Revolvers by (then) Major Julian Hatcher. You can get a spiffy new paperback copy from Amazon in short time for short money. And there are probably a half dozen hardcover reprints on ebay at any given time.

Here's some of what Hatcher writes about testing handguns for accuracy:

"At Springfield Armory the thousands of automatic pistols specially selected for use at the National Matches are targeted by the use of an improvised rest made by taking a step ladder of the right height to support the forearm of the targeter, and fastening to the top of it a board with a V-shaped notch cut in it. This piece of board is adjustable up and down by means of a thumb-screw. This notched board is adjusted so that when the targeter's forearm rests on top of the step-ladder, the V-shaped notch will support the pistol by the receiver just forward of the trigger guard. This "receiver and forearm rest" is perhaps the most satisfactory method of testing heavy caliber revolvers for accuracy."



If the "receiver and forearm rest" was good enough for selecting National Match .45's at Springfield Armory in Hatcher's day, it ought to be useful on your 50 yard pistol range today. And don't hesitate to bring it over to your neighbor's 200 yard rifle range. If he's shooting his rifle off-hand, a good handgun and that rest, might win you a case of beer.

[44MAG#1]

This is a serious question, because I just don't know and I'm trying to learn without a teacher. It has only been in the past couple of years that I now have a place to shoot. Behind my house I can go to 50 yards. Next door, at my neighbor's place we can go out a couple of hundred yards (haven't measured it out yet). Plan on shooting hand guns on mine and rifles on his.

When you guys are talking about off hand shooting, with the groups sizes being discussed, at 25 yards, is this slow fire? Taking time to line up the sights on the bullseye for each shot, or are you shooting as fast as you can get a decent sight picture back?

I've never tried to test the precision of my handguns before. All I've known is what is written recently. I can say a couple of years back, I looked into getting a non resident carry permit for the State of RI. They required the qualification to be shot at 75 feet.

I will say this. You will get many answers from those who own very, very, few handguns and who shoots very, very, very little to those who own more handguns than the US Army and who shoots more than the all the US Military put together and who own very, very little equipment to those who owns thousands and thousands of dollars worth of equipment.
Now with that said. I don't shoot much now and getting old has hampered my ability
If anyone thinks shooting 5, 6, 8 inch groups offhand standing using a two hand hold shooting slow fire at 25 yards is good, they need to seriously rethink their belief.
Keeping in mind everyone, including the "Pro's" , make a boo boo shot occasionally.
Now you will hear of and see occasionally a picture of some fantastic groups fired offhand standing that will amaze you. Remember those groups more than likely don't represent the shooters true ability. It is a representation that they had a lucky wallet group or it is one group they have fired out of many, many, many, many groups.
The more groups, targets you fire the more likely you will have a lucky accident.
Don't think the lucky accident defines your ability
BTW I FORGOT THIS. Don't think your ability off a benchrest defines your offhand ability. It doesn't. One may want to think that to salve his ego when ego has nothing to do with one offhand ability.
I've seen that happen too at the range and one was a late shooting buddy. Excellent benchrest shooter with a handgun but couldn't hit a bull in the behind standing offhand.

[Thumbcocker]

This is a serious question, because I just don't know and I'm trying to learn without a teacher. It has only been in the past couple of years that I now have a place to shoot. Behind my house I can go to 50 yards. Next door, at my neighbor's place we can go out a couple of hundred yards (haven't measured it out yet). Plan on shooting hand guns on mine and rifles on his.

When you guys are talking about off hand shooting, with the groups sizes being discussed, at 25 yards, is this slow fire? Taking time to line up the sights on the bullseye for each shot, or are you shooting as fast as you can get a decent sight picture back?

I've never tried to test the precision of my handguns before. All I've known is what is written recently. I can say a couple of years back, I looked into getting a non resident carry permit for the State of RI. They required the qualification to be shot at 75 feet.

I can only speak for myself. I have had no formal training other than what was required for ccw permits and that was decades after I started shooting handguns. I shoot for accuracy period. When I really want to shoot for a group, especially with something that kicks, I will shoot one shot put the gun on the bench and maybe walk around a bit. Then I will pick up the gun, carefully build my stance from foot placement up, build my grip, and shoot another shot. Then repeat the process. It may take 4 or 5 minutes to shoot a cylinder full.

My goal is to hit things. I hunt with handguns. I really like shooting handguns at 100 yards at reactive targets. Mostly clay birds and bottles of water (12 to 20 ounce). If I feel especially masochistic I shoot at gallon jugs at 200 yards. Paper targets are for load testing and development. Paper targets are not your friends. They hate you and they will not lie to you to avoid hurting your feelings. They are necessary for load development.

When shooting at longer distance a spotter is crucial. You will almost certainly loose sight of everything in the recoil and all you should be seeing is the front sight anyway.

With good loads and a good shooting position a handgun can be amazing at distance. When you hit a standard size clay bird at 100 yards from a standing 2 hand hold there is a feeling of accomplishment that is indescribable. It doesn't happen every time but when it does it is worth all the practice and load development. At least for me. I am not a trained competitive shooter, just a guy who loves handguns and seeing what they can do. It has been a fascinating process and I will continue as long as I am able.

[44MAG#1]

Never forget the humbleness of the humble shots.
They are there to "check the ego".

[rintinglen]

I will say this. You will get many answers from those who own very, very, few handguns and who shoots very, very, very little to those who own more handguns than the US Army and who shoots more than the all the US Military put together and who own very, very little equipment to those who owns thousands and thousands of dollars worth of equipment.
Now with that said. I don't shoot much now and getting old has hampered my ability
If anyone thinks shooting 5, 6, 8 inch groups offhand standing using a two hand hold shooting slow fire at 25 yards is good, they need to seriously rethink their belief.
Keeping in mind everyone, including the "Pro's" , make a boo boo shot occasionally.
Now you will hear of and see occasionally a picture of some fantastic groups fired offhand standing that will amaze you. Remember those groups more than likely don't represent the shooters true ability. It is a representation that they had a lucky wallet group or it is one group they have fired out of many, many, many, many groups.
The more groups, targets you fire the more likely you will have a lucky accident.
Don't think the lucky accident defines your ability

True words, these.

The actual test of your ability is not what you might hit, it is what you can't miss.

[El Bibliotecario]

I am happy if I can score 100 with ten shots at an NRA 25 yard timed and rapid fire target--using deliberate slow fire from a Weaver stance, shooting at 25 yards distance. The ten ring is 3 1/2 " in diameter; since I count 'scratch' hits as is the custom in competition, 4" diameter would be a more realistic figure. I use this standard because its the best I can shoot. My other standard is highly scientific--at 25 yards, can I hit a 24 oz tin can with most of my shots?

[contender1]

"This is a serious question, because I just don't know and I'm trying to learn without a teacher. It has only been in the past couple of years that I now have a place to shoot. Behind my house I can go to 50 yards. Next door, at my neighbor's place we can go out a couple of hundred yards (haven't measured it out yet). Plan on shooting hand guns on mine and rifles on his.

When you guys are talking about off hand shooting, with the groups sizes being discussed, at 25 yards, is this slow fire? Taking time to line up the sights on the bullseye for each shot, or are you shooting as fast as you can get a decent sight picture back?

I've never tried to test the precision of my handguns before. All I've known is what is written recently. I can say a couple of years back, I looked into getting a non resident carry permit for the State of RI. They required the qualification to be shot at 75 feet. "

Decades ago,, when I took up handgun shooting,, I too had no mentor, or formal instruction. Of course,, there was no internet, or other immediate help. Books were around,, but often,, a bit confusing.
As such,, I developed some bad habits, & incorrect methods of handgun shooting that caused my abilities to suffer.

First off, if at all possible,, find a mentor or even pay a well known handgun instructor to at least teach you the PROPER basics of grip, stance, sight alignment, sight focus, trigger pull, follow-through, etc. It will be MUCH better than trying to break an ingrained, motor-memory skill that's incorrect.

That said, let's address your questions.
Group sizes. Normally they are measured at a specific distance, (say 25 yds) in both offhand & from a bench. Both techniques to properly do this are different. But they give you an idea of your potential & the gun's potential. And yes,, they are both carefully done in a slower, deliberate method. Speed is not your friend.

Action handgun shooters in a competition such as USPSA look at the fact that their scores are partially based upon speed. Scores are based upon speed AND accuracy. But the distances they most often shoot, combined with the size of the "A" zone scoring area can make for somewhat easier shooting than trying to get a tight group on a bullseye. But even in USPSA,, "Spray & pray" at top speed will not win.

So, by far,, I'd seriously suggest you look hard at finding an instructor or mentor with the credentials to at least give you the proper basics of how to shoot a handgun.