point blank grizz loads 50-100, experience wanted

[hard88cast]

I have a browning 86, 18" barrel built for the 50-100-450. Yes, new top of the line barrel.
I have pretty much settled on 530 grain .512 linbaugh fn hard cast gas check at 1500fps..
450 gr fn linbaugh hard cast gas checked at 1600fps.
or
450 gr Hawke copper jacketed fp at 1600fps.
They all shoot great at 25yds.
Am wondering from experience what is the best load for grizz defense at under 25yds.
The only medium I have tried is a dirt bank with some small dispersed gravel mixed in.
Am looking for experience with point blank grizz charging destruction. Hard cast or jacketed?
All of these bullets found in the dirt/rock bank have hit rock and expanded to 1.000" diam. Gas checks and jackets are still intact.

I understand bone isnt as tough as hitting rock buried in a dirt bank.
Any thoughts are appreciated.
thanks
montana

[huntinlever]

I have a browning 86, 18" barrel built for the 50-100-450. Yes, new top of the line barrel.
I have pretty much settled on 530 grain .512 linbaugh fn hard cast gas check at 1500fps..
450 gr fn linbaugh hard cast gas checked at 1600fps.
or
450 gr Hawke copper jacketed fp at 1600fps.
They all shoot great at 25yds.
Am wondering from experience what is the best load for grizz defense at under 25yds.
The only medium I have tried is a dirt bank with some small dispersed gravel mixed in.
Am looking for experience with point blank grizz charging destruction. Hard cast or jacketed?
All of these bullets found in the dirt/rock bank have hit rock and expanded to 1.000" diam. Gas checks and jackets are still intact.

I understand bone isnt as tough as hitting rock buried in a dirt bank.
Any thoughts are appreciated.
thanks
montana

Not speaking with any authority, but at under 25 yards for purely defense why not a 12 gauge bruiser slug in a dependable pump action?

[HWooldridge]

The hard cast lead will probably shoot through a large bear - with the possible exception of a frontal head shot. That may not be optimum performance for stopping power.

I know they are nowhere near a bear but I’ve shot straight thru several deer with hard cast 455 gr lead bullets from a 45-70 and they acted like it was a fly bite. Obviously, they would have eventually died had I not finished the job, but I found 350 gr Sierra JHP mushroomed and knocked them down. If I were going to use a lead bullet, I’d probably go with a softer alloy.

[Rapidrob]

Look up .50 Alaskan loads. Several for bear.

[huntinlever]

The hard cast lead will probably shoot through a large bear - with the possible exception of a frontal head shot. That may not be optimum performance for stopping power.

I know they are nowhere near a bear but I’ve shot straight thru several deer with hard cast 455 gr lead bullets from a 45-70 and they acted like it was a fly bite. Obviously, they would have eventually died had I not finished the job, but I found 350 gr Sierra JHP mushroomed and knocked them down. If I were going to use a lead bullet, I’d probably go with a softer alloy.

Side note but re deer, my experience more than I'm truly comfortable with, to be honest. Absent a shoulder shot, which has always done as intended, strongly makes me reconsider the BHN of my alloy.

[MarkP]

A friend of my dad's was a game biologist in Alaska until the late 80's or so. When my dad visited him he said he carried a short bbl 12 ga pump loaded with slugs everywhere he went when working in remote areas.

[HWooldridge]

How many shells does your ‘86 hold? I would guess no more than 3-4 in the magazine and one up the pipe. You could alternate soft and hard cast, then plan to just keep shooting until the rifle is empty. I’ve never hunted bear but I don’t think the term “overkill” would apply to me…LOL

[BLAHUT]

I have a browning 86, 18" barrel built for the 50-100-450. Yes, new top of the line barrel.
I have pretty much settled on 530 grain .512 linbaugh fn hard cast gas check at 1500fps..
450 gr fn linbaugh hard cast gas checked at 1600fps.
or
450 gr Hawke copper jacketed fp at 1600fps.
They all shoot great at 25yds.
Am wondering from experience what is the best load for grizz defense at under 25yds.
The only medium I have tried is a dirt bank with some small dispersed gravel mixed in.
Am looking for experience with point blank grizz charging destruction. Hard cast or jacketed?
All of these bullets found in the dirt/rock bank have hit rock and expanded to 1.000" diam. Gas checks and jackets are still intact.

I understand bone isnt as tough as hitting rock buried in a dirt bank.
Any thoughts are appreciated.
thanks
montana

My bear gun is a 45/70 Guide gun, 515 grfp, pure lead, 100% energy transfer, 27gr of 5744, Mag primer, about 1200 PS, Guide gun carries 7 rounds, a shotgun carries 5 rounds, hard lead bullets goes straight through, unless you hit bone, pure lead hits like a freight train, stays together and transfers all its energy, very accurate. Carried this when fishing in Alaska.

[indian joe]

My bear gun is a 45/70 Guide gun, 515 grfp, pure lead, 100% energy transfer, 27gr of 5744, Mag primer, about 1200 PS, Guide gun carries 7 rounds, a shotgun carries 5 rounds, hard lead bullets goes straight through, unless you hit bone, pure lead hits like a freight train, stays together and transfers all its energy, very accurate. Carried this when fishing in Alaska.

I never shot a bear - nor likely to - but soft lead makes sense - (hard cast drills calibre size holes until you hit heavy bone) - softer you get good expansion and energy transfer without the excess explosiveness that sometimes comes with a jacket slug up close - have done some end on shots (and shoulder shots) on hogs with a 348 and the soft lead/gascheck is a more effective answer than a hornady 200grain jacketed

[StrawHat]

As I remember from reading about the great Hunters of Africa, Asia and the Americas, when they were going after the heavy hitters that could stomp, gore, bite or otherwise hurt the hunter, the bullet of choice was a solid. For things like cats and other “thin skinned” beasts, a soft point of some sort. And then there were those that said, solids for everything. One bullet, one load, one sighting, no variables to mess with things when the going gets tough.

I use a harder alloy bullet when hunting. I want two holes in the hide. While I have not gone out of my way to shoot bear, I have hunted in bear country and felt fine with my choice of loads.

Kevin

[Gunlaker]

You won't need a lot of shots. If a grizzly charges you from 25 yards you'll be lucky to get one aimed shot off.

Chris.

[Shawlerbrook]

What he ^^^ said !

[huntinlever]

Given a grizzly can exceed 30 mph, 25 yards is about 1 1/2 seconds. That's 1 1/2 adrenaline-filled. stone freaked seconds. I know for sure I wouldn't want to trust keeping my cool for the well-aimed shot.

I vaguely remember a youtube vid of some swedes or some some such nordic guys killing a fully charging brown bear, taking 3 shots if I remember right, with a 12 gauge slug. The time to closing distance was insanely fast.

[hard88cast]

Thanks for the responses.
I shoot autos for geese, no switching to pumps.
Shot many deer with my 45-90, broadside and thru the lungs, this wont be broadside.
Full length mag tube, six in the tube and one in the pipe.
I thought about softer lead, I think that would be great for a broadside shot, Not sure about the deformation/glance off of heavy bone frontal shot(I have no experience with that, just thinking this thru).

I play most weekends in the summer/fall in solid grizz country, I almost dont want to go up there any more as Ive had many encounters with the local grizz, and only once had to retreat into a lake almost to my neck before he got out of the water and wandered off. Just looking for the best one shot frontal kill lucky kill shot.

I am not hunting bear, nor do I plan to, this rifle/cartridge sole purpose is point blank defense.
I know how fast a bear can cover ground, am not saying I would be able to handle it, I have stood my ground several times to charging Kodiaks to 20' before they stopped in the alaskan salmon streams with no weapon of any type on me(NEVER go there again). But I will say that at the time I was 50/50 in the belief they were all false charges because the different bears did not have the head lowered down or there ears folded back, thats the key.

This will only be defensive shooting under 25', so the bear is going to be full frontal, that means almost all bone, hump, head, frontal shoulders and sternum. Not much for soft tissue. My thoughts were that soft lead or jacketed will deform to much and slide off and deflect on the big bones, but I may be wrong, thats why any thoughts are much appreciated.
thanks

[MakeMineA10mm]

I’ve never shot a Griz or been charged at by one, but I’ve read a lot from those who have. Bear defense is no joke!

First thought is bear spray/wasp spray/high-percentage pepper spray. Why? Because it’s more likely to give a “hit” in an “Oh Sh!t” moment when your stress hormones and adrenaline dump into your system. They also have a pretty good track record of dissuading bears.

My second thought is to use a 12-ga with Brenneke Slugs. This pokes a .72”-caliber hole vs. the .512”-caliber hole of the rifle. Also shoguns are designed for fast handling and recoil less than that rifle. Brennekes are known for their weight, power, and penetration.

Third, and no offense is meant to any prior poster, but shooting soft lead bullets is a horrible idea. The purpose you outlined is NOT shooting a broadside dear and looking for expansion. You said “a charging grizzly at close range.” That’s a headshot at a bear with a gaping mouth (prepared to clamp onto you), and your aim point will be the nose/eye triangle. Grizzly skulls are incredibly thick/strong. You want a bullet that will bust through that bone and deliver shock and awe to the brain. Elmer Keith described a bear shot several times with a handgun at close range, and the soft lead bullets all “expanded” against the skull of the bear, none of them penetrating to the brain. That’s the error of soft lead.

Lastly, I strongly recommend lots of practice, under pressure, at snap shooting. Like others above said, Grizz move VERY fast. You’ll likely get only 1 shot, maybe 2 if you’re lucky AND good with your weapon.

[indian joe]

I’ve never shot a Griz or been charged at by one, but I’ve read a lot from those who have. Bear defense is no joke!

First thought is bear spray/wasp spray/high-percentage pepper spray. Why? Because it’s more likely to give a “hit” in an “Oh Sh!t” moment when your stress hormones and adrenaline dump into your system. They also have a pretty good track record of dissuading bears.

My second thought is to use a 12-ga with Brenneke Slugs. This pokes a .72”-caliber hole vs. the .512”-caliber hole of the rifle. Also shoguns are designed for fast handling and recoil less than that rifle. Brennekes are known for their weight, power, and penetration.

Third, and no offense is meant to any prior poster, but shooting soft lead bullets is a horrible idea. The purpose you outlined is NOT shooting a broadside dear and looking for expansion. You said “a charging grizzly at close range.” That’s a headshot at a bear with a gaping mouth (prepared to clamp onto you), and your aim point will be the nose/eye triangle. Grizzly skulls are incredibly thick/strong. You want a bullet that will bust through that bone and deliver shock and awe to the brain. Elmer Keith described a bear shot several times with a handgun at close range, and the soft lead bullets all “expanded” against the skull of the bear, none of them penetrating to the brain. That’s the error of soft lead.

Lastly, I strongly recommend lots of practice, under pressure, at snap shooting. Like others above said, Grizz move VERY fast. You’ll likely get only 1 shot, maybe 2 if you’re lucky AND good with your weapon.

my idea of "soft" is a softish alloy rather than the common non deforming hard cast - would be little different in deformation rate than a brenneke slug.
have read others recommend the spray as a better option

head shooting a charging bear is gonna be an issue of muscle memory and instinct above all else ---bear, hog, buffalo or whatever once an angry male commits to the full charge - nothing short of a paralysing shot will stop it - they keep coming past the point of being technically dead.

[hard88cast]

Sorry, been gone on business.
I get plenty of free cans of new bear spray from the airport, people think they can fly home with it, no no, tsa takes it. Im not going to talk down on bear spray,and I do carry bear spray, and it has its place, I would say against a black bear or maybe 3 year old rambunkshish grizz twins who mom just kicked out, they are always looking for trouble and to prove themselves. But once a grizz decides its full on attack bear spray isnt going to stop his decision(no way), until about 5/10 seconds have passed, thats after he has your head or shoulder in his mouth and he starts breathing again, then it may take effect. Thats my belief from dealing with them for 40yrs. Bear spray is what fish and game tell people to use, mainly because 95% of bear interactions are false charges and they dont want people shooting all the bears or each other by mistake, I can agree with there thoughts.
If your unlucky enough to stumble on a grizz feeding on an elk at 30' or a sow and cubs or walking up on a sleeping bear, usually(almost always) you have time to make a decision which is usually the case, at least with my experience. Making noise in the bush is the best thing to do.They are not out there hunting us.
I dont know how hard the MBW cast slugs are, If I remember correctly I thought they said in the low bhn20s. Hitting some small gravel in a dirt bank expands then to an honest 1" and they dont come apart, to me that sounds like a real good bullet for frontal bone smashing, but again no actual experience.
I have seriously considered a twelve gauge but it would have to be an auto since I only use autos and I know I would forget to pump a pump. And then its the issue of an auto getting dirt in it while mining and jamming. Maybe the shotgun is the best, I just have no experience with this.
In Montana if the Bear doesnt have powder burns or residue in its mouth you are in trouble with the feds, bigtime, and the feds are not good people like the local old time wardens"we use to have here in Montana".
So again, at the distance bear spray sprays, 20 ft max in reality(with the perfect breeze), you are just out of luck on a bear thats made a decision to beat you up.
Back to the bullets, jacketed or somewhat hardcast.

[HWooldridge]

I inherited my grandfather’s old 12 ga Remington model 11, which was made in the early 1930’s. It absolutely will not jam with “high brass” or heavy loads, no matter how dirty it gets. It gets torn down once a year for a detail strip and always amazes me how much trash comes pouring out of the nooks and crannies. I would have no qualms carrying it against dangerous game, whether man or beast.

[36g]

I noticed last year in sporting goods/gun stores in Bozeman and Livingstone, MT that they all had "Bear Loads" for handguns (mostly .44 Mag and 10 mm). Said bear loads were either heavy hard cast lead or FP FMJ. I would suspect that similar loads for rifles would be wise - heavy, large caliber hard cast lead or FP FMJ. Shotgun slugs would fit that bill also.

[BLAHUT]

I noticed last year in sporting goods/gun stores in Bozeman and Livingstone, MT that they all had "Bear Loads" for handguns (mostly .44 Mag and 10 mm). Said bear loads were either heavy hard cast lead or FP FMJ. I would suspect that similar loads for rifles would be wise - heavy, large caliber hard cast lead or FP FMJ. Shotgun slugs would fit that bill also.

Gun stores sell what the salesman tells them is good stuff. All points raised here are good, now I will say, when any of you have lived in gris country for many years, you may find that the book learning you have, is invalid, in real life. If a grisly has decided to charge and is serious, then there are only one of two things that are going to happen, one, the bear dies, two, you die, that is all the choices there are... I have great respect for the bears, black bears or grizzly's, Have lived in there territory for many years, black bears, IMHO, are worse, more likely to cause problems and want a piece of you..