Yep got some 174 in my cart now. Has anyone had any experience with PPU projectiles when working up a load and if so whats your thoughts?Originally Posted by Remiel
|
   
   
|
|
Yep got some 174 in my cart now. Has anyone had any experience with PPU projectiles when working up a load and if so whats your thoughts?
The Mark VII was 174gr .312 Dia. Round
Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk
I use them a lot in my mosin nagants and have had very good performance with the 150gr, 174gr and 180gr in my M39,
Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk
barnabus,
You will love your .303 rifle. I got my first #4 in 1958 and have many other .303 rifles. As for reloading; forget running the resizing die down to the shell holder and "then half a turn more" as some reloading die makers say! If you want to ruin good brass, then go that route.
EACH .303 rifle is a law unto itself; I let each rifle or carbine "tell" me when resizing is ENOUGH. I back off the resizing die two turns, lube the case, resize and try it in the individual arm seeking a slight "crunch" fit. As needed, I turn down the resizing die until the bolt closes with a slight crunch fit. Over sizing a .303 case ensures early case failure.
I label EVERY box of .303 reloads specifically to each arm. One old .303 MKIII is Long in the tooth and needs 1.5 BACKOFF on the resizing die. I comply and get 10 reloads out of the brass. Size OVER HARD or size enough.
Adam
Well this was about 7 years ago. Way I remember it, I sweated getting it on there and setting it up. But when I tried to sight it in, it was plumb way off as far as windage. I could not adjust my scope enough to bring it in. I took the scope off and I was able to bend the mount enough to get it on target. But after having done so I worried about how easily it bent. So I went back to the original rear sight. I have been looking at the Red Star Mountain Enfield scope and mount - but boy howdy, they are pricey. So still looking for a scope mount for the Enfield where you can use a 1 inch tube. Maybe S&K has improved over the years - if so let me know.
Britons shall never be slaves.
Remember most Enfield rifles prefer flat base J words,I think the ones fitted with ( H ) target barrels might be ok with boat tails,not sure but may have tighter chambers!Both mine have H barrels and shoot BT ok ,but when available flat base rules. Mal in Au.
I've had good results with PPU, have some win 1942 (WW2), but I have set them aside since the PPU came.
- I measured up Mk VII WWII ball rounds from several different arsenals and some Canadian arsenal VII ball rounds from the early 1950s. Of all the commercial cases available, PP was by far the closest to duplicating the WWII military Mark VII. Greek HXP VII ball is/was extremely good, both as far as accuracy (I used it for testing grouping ability of a couple of cases of Long Branch No. 4s I bought back in the early 90's) and for the quality of the brass. I have pretty much purchased and pre-prepped enough PP brass to last me until I'm on the other side of the grass.
- If you really want to get anal about resizing your brass, prep it BEFORE you first fire it. So the dreaded FIRST case stretch never happens to begin with. I've never tried testing to prove it, but I believe that with new, unaltered unfired brass, the majority of stress/damage happens with that first firing. Unless, of course, you fully resize each time after firing.
Use the next size up case neck expanding die to open the case mouth. Then run into your sizer, sizing the neck down while forming a false shoulder until the case just chambers with a light crush fit. Now your new case is firmly supported at firing between front contact at the false shoulder and contact at the rear with the bolt face. The only way brass can go is outward i.e. fireformed brass without case stretch.
I used to also slip a very thin O-ring over the case, pushed up against the rim to also center the head of the case at the rear as it sits against the bolt face. PP brass is tight enough that the O-ring thing doesn't work - even thin is too big. At least too tight in my rifle with PP brass.
- I use a Lee collet die to resize after firing, and then NOE's neck expander plug system to expand the neck to where i want it. I could skip this step if Lee would take orders for custom mandrel sizes, but every time I check their website that isn't happening.
- The No. 4 Mk<whatever> "excessive headspace", "oversize chamber" narrative is BS, by the way.
The Brits designed these rifles to chamber any groddy ammunition they were fed from any near forgotten colonial arsenal where it could have been sitting cooking in tropical heat and humidity for years, covered with verdigris or not, covered in the mud of WW1 trenches or not. They weren't worrying about handloaders wringing our hands because fired military brass wouldn't last for many recycling cycles.
A competent handloader can make the brass properly fit their chamber, if not before the first firing, then every firing after that. Handloaders here who cast bullets are well ahead of the handloaders that don't cast in this regard: we can order a mould with dimensions that match the ball seat/led of our individual rifle. I've been extremely happy with the two bullet moulds for my LE that I ordered from Accurate - they cast exactly to the dimensions requested and do a great job.
- Greek HXP ball ammo is now about as scarce (and as expensive) as Fairy Foreskins and Rocking Horse Poop, the last time I looked. The dirt cheap, high end Greek surplus HXP that was cheap like borscht back in the early 1990's isn't much of a likely option these days unless you have a Secret Stash.
- I case neck anneal every time I reload fired brass. Not because I'm that anal, but because I'm too lazy to try and keep track of how many times cases have been fired before annealing. Given how long PP brass lasts, and how readily available it is, I'm not sure why I bother annealing. It doesn't take much time to do, but the extra life I get out of the brass probably doesn't make it worth the time spent annealing.
- Both Hornady and Sierra's 174 gr. FMJs shoot over the course better than Greek ball ammo in my rifle - and the rifle I kept of the two cases I bought was the best grouping rifle of the lot, although not the prettiest. Neither one of those bullets, reloaded to ball ammo muzzle velocity will match Mk. VII ammunition ballistics. So - if you're thinking you'll work up a load so the Mk 1 or Mk3 sight graduations will be correct over range with your reloads - have fun trying, but scores of guys have tried doing that and finally accepted the Sierra and Hornady bullets have different ballistics.
- There is the PP 174 gr. bullet, but I've never got around to trying it in my rifle. A lot of the milsurp LE shooters who are serious about using the rifle out to the ranges like they were used in Service Rifle competition say that the best jacketed bullet they've tried for grouping ability is Sierra's hunting bullet. But I haven't tried that one either, so no experience to pass on there.
MOC031, the headspace is close on my rifles so I haven't really gone to the extreme to prep brass. Still I might try a few with the next batch as the stuff has gone out of sight, hard to find and expensive. I like tinkering around and things like that interest me anyway.
I have read of using a few wraps of dental floss under the rim if an O ring doesn't fit and a round or two of tape around the case in front of the rim to center the case for even expansion. Expanding the neck would also center the case at the shoulder and might be the best bet.
I made a mandrel for my Lee neck sizer. I just turned a rod short rod with a drill press and a file and peened a shoulder to keep it in the die. I made the proper size to seat my cast boolits. It is short and does not decap buts not a problem.
I mostly use the Lee 185 mold, it pours close to .314 and does well. I started playing with powder coating and did a few that turned out at .316. I haven't had a chance to try them yet.
Enfield's were my first and favorite mil-surps, sometimes you can really get out in the weeds working with them.
Dave
Most of my brass is PPU and some boxes have 4 reloads in them. Neck size only !!!! I got mine back in 2014 from some outfit in AZ and it was both 150 gr and 180 gr rounds. It was pretty cheap so I got about 6-8 boxes.
I have 4 bullets for my gun. .312/150 gr. Hornady, .312/174 gr. Hornady Round noses, .312/215 gr Woodleigh's and 205 gr Lyman 314299 cast. This last one is the same boolit as 311299 with slightly bigger Driving Bands. I shot my best Short Range Silhouette score of 32/40 with that boolit.
It is kind of funny how all the "In the Know guys" say the .303 is some how Obsolete?, and yet they talk about How wonderful the Mosin Nagant is when the cartridge and rifle was designed and built at the same time the Lee Enfield was being built. The cartridges are very similar and the 7.65x54R is still being used in Russian Sniper Rifles and Machine Guns. .303 not as much simply because we in the West have more to choose from and we got that .308/7.32x51 thing that is so popular.
When people talk about Obsolete guns and cartridges my question always comes up,,," will you stand in front of one?" The Enfield cartridge is just as effective now as it was in 1890, in fact more so due to better bullets and powders. I also bring up how the Brown Bess Musket was the Main Service Arm of the British Empire from 1720-1830, probably because nothing better was out there during that time frame. Getting hit by a 3/4" 600+ gr lead ball would certainly ruin your day!
Surprisingly it will" still" ruin your day! Obsolete? Certainly. Ineffective? Really, you have to ask ???
IMHO the only "Obsolete Firearm" is one you can't make ammo for. And even then it is possible to make just about anything if you try hard enough !
Randy
Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 05-01-2023 at 03:27 PM.
"It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
www.buchananprecisionmachine.com
Well, THAT explains a LOT! I once worked up loads for my Pattern 14: 174gr flat-base round-nose J words, and 174gr Match Kings (303 cal). the fbrn shot a tight group at 100yds and the SMK's scattered like a covey of quail!
Rights, and Privileges, are not synonymous. We have the Right to Bear Arms. As soon as the Government mandates firearm registration, and permiting, then that Right becomes a Privilege, and may be taken away at our Master's discretion.
A dial indicator on the fired brass that came out of my LE told me that if the chamber of that rifle wasn't of concentric diameter, I needed a better dial indicator to show me that.
A quick look at Graf & Sons shows PP .303 Brit brass at about $.78 a case. Not much different than cases for the other European surplus calibers being mentioned here. So it's there if you want to order it.
https://www.grafs.com/catalog/product/productId/75912
I tried the tape thing with pipe tape, but I don't recall going so far as to test to see whether it made a difference as well. The false neck thing is very easy to do and solid.I have read of using a few wraps of dental floss under the rim if an O ring doesn't fit and a round or two of tape around the case in front of the rim to center the case for even expansion. Expanding the neck would also center the case at the shoulder and might be the best bet.
I no longer have a lathe and I probably don't remember how to use one well enough anymore anyways. I think the last time I used a lathe was to make a mandrel so I could turn down .45 Schofield pistol case rims from the front so I would have cases for my .455 Webley revolver.I made a mandrel for my Lee neck sizer. I just turned a rod short rod with a drill press and a file and peened a shoulder to keep it in the die. I made the proper size to seat my cast boolits. It is short and does not decap buts not a problem.
I should talk to my tame gunsmith to see if he can be recruited to make mandrels to use existing collet dies with different calibers i.e. .308 Winchester used for .358 Winchester and 30/06 for 35 Whelen. And then there's my 30 US...
I ordered two of Accurate's moulds with some size changes. They've done so well that I haven't looked elsewhere - the one does well in my grandfather's 1895 Winchester in 30 US that has a barrel on it that should be on a .303 British when you see the dimensions.I mostly use the Lee 185 mold, it pours close to .314 and does well. I started playing with powder coating and did a few that turned out at .316. I haven't had a chance to try them yet.
The Canadian Rangers replaced their LE's with a new .308 bolt gun only a few years ago. I have no idea if there are any units in former Commonwealth nations that still issue Lee Enfields to their reserve units, militia, etc. Pakistan or India perhaps?
There's more than a few belly shooters in other places in the world where you would not be wanting to expose yourself to fire from their Lee Enfield at 900 meters. Using aperture sights, no less. Even though aperture sights on their No. 4s more like this.
Among relatively unworn #4s, boat tailed bullets can perform just fine. I haven't paid much attention but I have read of collectors with well worn military .303s that they become intolerant of boat tales as the bore gets worn. In mine, accuracy is very good. But like a lot of good rifles (surplus or not) accuracy is very good with a variety of bullets and different designs.
MOCO31, the chamber on my mk2 and the 1950 LB #4 are good but I have sees some rifles, especially war production with sloppy chambers. It look as if the extractor had pushed the case to one side. Whatever the reason the cases bulged mostly on one side.
I am definitely going to try the false neck on a batch of cases. Looks like we both have a more than passing interest in the Enfield.
Speaking of Webleys, a good friend has one with a shaved cylinder. We have been shooting it with down loaded 45 acp ammo. He loads it to around 650 fps, it is accurate and fun.
OT but I was in Montana about a year ago. We were not up around your area but the southern part. We came out of the park at Gardner a couple weeks before the flood. We drove across the state to Little Big Horn. Beautiful country but I don't think I could stand to the winter weather.
Concur.
In my C1950 #4 Mk2 accuracy with the 174 gr MK is excellent. That BT'd MK also shoots as well as any FG bullet in my Ross M10.
Larry Gibson
“Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
― Nikola Tesla
Morning coffee in hand...
Did curiosity lead you to cast the chamber if any of those rifles were yours?
It was hearing of things like that when I began my search for a #4 with inherent competition quality grouping as is that led me decide to buy two crates of rifles, clean and test fire all, and keep the most accurate of the rifles. Being relatively young at the time with my job taking a lot of the week, I didn't want to go through a succession of rifles to either find a keeper or start fiddling with it to make it work. I'd read enough about companies like Fulton's and the DCRA in Canada and the various ways they worked on the draws to get over the course grouping ability that I decided I didn't want to invest my time trying to emulate their results.
If anyone DOES want to try their hand at working on the draws of their LE #4; let me know and I'll shoot you the drawings and descriptions on up pressure, where the cork goes, etc. Unless I'm forced to, my #4 will never be taken out of the stock again, least I can't get the identical bedding in the stock when putting it back together.
All those #4s were 1950 Long Branch rifles the importer found squirreled away in Belgium. War stores they and I assumed. But why the Belgians would choose anybody's LEs for that when they had the home grown FN49 and FAL is a bit of a puzzlement. But they were all in the original factory grease, a few but not all had the factory tag - which meant I had the chore of cleaning every single one of them before mounting the scope and test firing them.
When I see what a factory new unissued 1950 Long Branch sells for now 30+ years later, I cry a tear at what I sold the rest of them for - while thinking I was making a tidy little profit for my work cleaning the grease from them.
It's really easy peasy; once you get the right neck expanding die to just slightly bump the neck diameter up, it's just as fast as resizing cases once you get the die dialed in to size the neck back down and create the false neck while doing so. And of course, it's a one time operation each time you buy a new batch of brass.I am definitely going to try the false neck on a batch of cases.
Except you mentioned owning multiple Lee Enfields, so that means each rifle has it's own brass that's fire formed to it.
I'm not a fan per se; this is my one and only Lee Enfield; it sprang out of an interest in shooting military matches. My first deer rifle circa 1961 was a P17 Enfield my Dad chose out of one of the barrels of surplus rifles in Vic Dick's Store that sold hardware and sporting goods. As a young kid, I was hoping he would pick a Jungle Carbine - that alleged flash suppressor on the muzzle looked like the coolest thing going to a young kid.Looks like we both have a more than passing interest in the Enfield.
I still have that; I have no idea why my father selected that particular one from those in the barrel, other than the fact it was a 30-06 unlike the Mausers and LEs that were also for sale. My grandfather took it to work and it came back with the ears at the back milled off and a Stith mount with a Weaver 4x was installed shortly afterwards. On my list of "Things I should do" is try some cast bullets in it. I haven't hunted with it since I hit the magical age I could legally purchase a rifle and promptly dropped my paycheque on two Husqvarna Featherweights, one in 30/06 and the other in .358 Norma Magnum. Carrying that P17 through my young years helped put shoulders and legs on me...
I'm unlike my brother who has collected various marks and just finished creating a faux sniper T with the replica barrels and telescopic sights available these days. He should be headed out to the range to test the results out one of these weeks soon; he keeps getting sidetracked by his obsession with Ross rifles, both military and civilian pattern.
Then there's a friend from policing and the military that I believe has collected a variant of every Lee Enfield that was used in Canada's wars; all of wartime manufacture with Canadian markings, and all looking like they were the sergeant major's personal rifle as far as condition goes. I believe he paid something like $2800 a couple of years ago for a Mk. I Long Lee dated about 1895 if I remember he'd been negotiating with a friend and fellow collector for years about. It had attended the Boer War, while the remainder of his LEs were WW1, WW2, and Korea. I'm not a collector, but any rifleman would appreciate his collection with all looking like they were the prized rifle of the regiment. Happily, they don't just sit carefully stored away collecting dust, he takes them all to the range.
Mine is one of those "in the family for years" things. Great grandfather carried it in WW1; was passed on to Dad's cousin who flew Beaufighters in New Guinea. When I deployed to Bosnia back in the early 90's, Bill showed up at our house with the Webley and a Browning 1903 and kukri wrapped up in an oily rag - his bail out kit after his first experiences with the Japanese on the ground after being shot down.Speaking of Webleys, a good friend has one with a shaved cylinder. We have been shooting it with down loaded 45 acp ammo. He loads it to around 650 fps, it is accurate and fun.
His sons weren't interested or whatever, so they all joined the arsenal. I didn't have the heart to tell Bill 455 Webley ammo wasn't in the NATO supply system any longer. Both pistols came with a small canvas bag of ammo he'd had since New Guinea. I've never fired any of them; everything out of the Webley has been cast in that spendy RCBS bullet mould that casts hollow base replica ball rounds.
The Webley prints about 6" left of point of aim with the load I'm using. That aggravates me but I've been unable to find anyone still alive that knows how to regulate Webleys. I've asked over at the Milsurps forum which is a clearinghouse of info on Lee Enfields (and other milsurp rifles) and Webleys, but no luck so far.
Then, yet again another occurrence of six degrees of separation, I ended up with the other great grandfather's S&W Triple Lock in .455 Webley that he carried at least at the battle of Amiens in 2018 - it came with the battle maps he carried, with his hand marked phase lines drawn on the map, etc. That one was offered to me by that branch of the family for $200 clearing up an estate. I snapped that up; for some reason they couldn't get rid of the revolver and maps fast enough, but his shaving kit, medals, rank insignia, etc, they told me not to bother even making an offer. I didn't know any of them including the previous possessor in the family, so I was pretty happy with what I got.
Between spending 30 years looking at military maps and later doing cartography relating to GIS contracts, the maps are almost as interesting to me as the Triple Lock revolver. Printed on linen paper - you can actually see the weave of the fine threads. Imagine faithfully reproducing all the trench lines, artillery and machine gun positions drawn by hand over the base map... and doing that probably hundreds of times.
The .455 ammunition I load for the .455's with an example of the WWII MkII ball from the bunch Bill gave me with the handguns and kukri. I was too lazy to trim the .45 Schofield brass back far enough to the case length specified, so I just trimmed it back far enough that all cases easily plop into every chamber of both revolvers. That's why the loaded ammunition looks so long.
I grew up right in the shadow of the Front Range of the Continental Divide, spent all my youth and as much time possible since living within about 30 miles of that line. Where we live here does not get anywhere near as cold as it does over on the Dry Side to the east over the Divide. Haven't spent much time in the southern areas near Yellowstone; our house is maybe half an hour from the West Gate to Glacier and The Bob is maybe 45 minutes or so SE. All those areas around Yellowstone, Bozeman, etc are overrun with tourists and transplanted Californians (mostly, unfortunately), so it's more a place to avoid than to go to.OT but I was in Montana about a year ago. We were not up around your area but the southern part. We came out of the park at Gardner a couple weeks before the flood. We drove across the state to Little Big Horn. Beautiful country but I don't think I could stand to the winter weather.
The Dry Side of Montana doesn't hold much interest for me, other than for occasional forays there hunting upland game around Malta or going to Browning at this time of the year for the incredible flyfishing for those football shaped massive rainbows at the lakes nearby on that reserve. One more thing to distract me from casting bullets...
If you're up this way planning on taking in Glacier NP the next time, stop in and we'll do the tour guide thing or at least point how the locals would see the sights here.
Is that one of the put-togethers that Long Branch made with the remaining bits and pieces after the production run ended in 1950?
If I recall correctly, they continued putting together rifles in an on/off fashion up until 1953 when they switched to manufacturing the Canadian FN FAL, the C1 and C2. The cases of rifles I bought were all 95L serial numbers, although not consecutive. They continued servicing the Lee Enfields until Diemaco (I think) replaced them as the service depot about 1974.
I have no idea what my brother has arrived at to reload for his military Ross's, although I told me earlier he's going to try and knock down an elk this coming hunting season with one of them. That would probably be the Sierra game bullet.
For anyone interested in the Canadian Long Branch No. 4 Mk. 1 rifles, there are a few articles and photo essays:
https://calibremag.ca/small-arms-lim...9-1945-part-1/
https://pbase.com/mrclark/long_branc...duction_photos
Do we have a library section here somewhere to upload military pams, sighting targets, armourer instructions, etc for the Lee Enfield rifles? I've amassed/scanned quite a bit of data over the last 30+ years. Some of that, especially the pams, can be found at an assortment of other places, but I'd like to make all of that available to everyone here in one spot if that's possible.
Maybe this is a sign I should be figuring out this cloud stuff and store it up there.
This thread is very interesting and informative.
I do have an L. E.#4 mk 2 but haven't fired it.
In fact ,
It has never been fired.
I bought it still wrapped up in the original paper and
I had other LE's to shoot.
This thread makes me want to go out and shoot this new one.
But I know that will instantly drop the value to some collectors.
I haven't done a chamber cast on my rifles but have had several and tinkered with a few more. I have seen a couple that had case expansion mostly on one side for whatever reason. Some of them looked like they had been used more for canoe paddle than a rifle. The Faz #4 mk2 I bought was out of wrap but unfired and full of grease, it shot really well when I first bought it for $145. After a couple months I got out and it fired a group about 8-9 inches to one side. The fore stock was cut very close to a knot from the looks of the grain and had warped and pulled the barrel. I tried to straighten it but it didn't work. It took a while but I found a new stock and spent a good bit of time setting it up. I actually floated the barrel in the forearm, I had read it didn't work but it does. It helps moisture related warping and changing the zero. The rifle does around 1 1/2" with Sierra 150's at 100 yds. and I am happy with that. It is drilled and tapped for a Weaver mount. It was made in 1949 if I remember right. Some worry about the collector value but I am going to let someone else worry about that. It's been my go to rifle for close to 30 years and it ain't going anywhere.
I bought a small book from the NRA on Enfields, it goes into the stocking up of the No1 and #4. I have set several up and they usually respond well to a little help. Probably the most accurate was a Lithgow No1. It was unusable as accuracy was so bad, took a while and a bit of ammo but it turned out great.
My Family has lived in this area since the 1790's. I was told by the family genealogist that one of my Grandfathers received a land grant in this area for service in the Continental Army.
Posting Permissions
| BP | Bronze Point | IMR | Improved Military Rifle | PTD | Pointed |
| BR | Bench Rest | M | Magnum | RN | Round Nose |
| BT | Boat Tail | PL | Power-Lokt | SP | Soft Point |
| C | Compressed Charge | PR | Primer | SPCL | Soft Point "Core-Lokt" |
| HP | Hollow Point | PSPCL | Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" | C.O.L. | Cartridge Overall Length |
| PSP | Pointed Soft Point | Spz | Spitzer Point | SBT | Spitzer Boat Tail |
| LRN | Lead Round Nose | LWC | Lead Wad Cutter | LSWC | Lead Semi Wad Cutter |
| GC | Gas Check |
Reply With Quote