Primers and Pressure

[foesgth]

I don't have the experience that many of you have in shotshell reloading. I have read the Lyman manual and everything else I can find (it seems the best info is right here). As you know we live in interesting times. One can not just run up to the LGS and get stuff like it is still the 20th century. So, here is my problem.

I was able to find a jug of HS-6. I have a bucket of federal hulls. The load I am looking at requires a WAA12L wad. By some miracle I also have a bag of those. Wow, that never happens. However Hodgdon publishes all of their loads with CCI 209M primers. As you guys know Big Foot bought up all the CCI primer production and it is in his cave. In my reading I have been told over and over that substituting components in a shotshell can bring on the end of the world. How much of a pressure difference is there going to be if I use a Winchester 209? Will the world end or just perhaps a few city blocks? The pressure on this load, as listed, is 9,900psi. What do you guys think?

I think I now spend more time looking for stuff than I do reloading.

[Larry Gibson]

With shotgun shell pressures it is the substitution of different hulls and/or wads that is the main concern.

[farmbif]

if memory serves me right I think it was in one of the Lyman shot shell reloading manuals that showed pressure differences using different primers in a particular load and it varied by I believe about 3000 psi. I'm no expert and certainly not a ballistics engineer. I stick with proven published data. the reloading data center on the imrpowder web site often shows loads using different primers and wads and some, SOME, the primer can be changed and a difference in the amount of powder used is a grain or two or 3. have you tried this imrpowder web site.
also if you might have some Alliant powder the Alliant web site has lots of load data

[W.R.Buchanan]

Pretty much all of the 209 primers are the same EXCEPT Federal 209's which will produce higher pressures in hot loads. If you are loading Low End Trap Loads you will still be in the safe zone.

Where the problems arise is with Heavy Slug or Buckshot loads where you are pushing pressures up towards the Max. Then subbing primers can bite you. That's where you avoid going to Federal 209's unless the load recipe calls for them.

Randy

[schutzen-jager]

iirc - when CCI first came out with the 209M they came with a warning that when using with their standard 209's to decrease powder charge by 10% if that helps -

[schutzen-jager]

found my last three cartons of the 209M - the 10% warning is in the fine print at bottom of sleeve - jmho you would be safe increasing powder carge by 10% when using the standard 209's -

[foesgth]

I found this over at Shotgun World. It is from a ballistician at Western Powders.

Primers:

It is well known that different primers deliver different energy levels. The way each company manufacturers and formulates the chemical composition, and configures the hardware (metallic) parts of the primer, all plays a major role in how the primer will deliver the energy to the powder.
Again, we must emphasize that it’s all about the particular combination, and whether a change in primer will show a difference in ballistics.
Shotgun primers are very sensitive to firing pin energy. This is due to the proportionally large displacement/deformation that must take place when the primer’s cup is crushed.
It is extremely difficult to pin the data down to a standard one load, where primer X will always deliver higher performances than Primer Z. AAC developed our loads using a standard typical primer. If all conditions are the same, the difference between primers will rarely be dangerous. It is obvious that if the load one is using, are already running at the maximum level with primer X, it would be unwise to merely change the primer and continue loading. This is also true for any change in component or procedure.
Once any component or procedure is changed, the combination will react differently. The proper way to proceed is to reduce the load by about 0.5grain to 0.7grains, and then confirm the performance by measuring the velocity or sensing the recoil/flight time. The reloader can then adjust back to the same velocity/recoil level, by increasing or decreasing the charge mass, or by adjusting to a stiffer softer wad or decreasing or increasing the crimp.

[foesgth]

found my last three cartons of the 209M - the 10% warning is in the fine print at bottom of sleeve - jmho you would be safe increasing powder carge by 10% when using the standard 209's -

So, it would seem that if the recipe I got from Hodgdon's called for a CCI209m and I use a Winchester primer I should have less pressure as you say. I'll count my fingers before and after shooting.

[turtlezx]

i agree load & shoot

[longbow]

A good read on primers and substitutions:

http://www.armbrust.acf2.org/primersubs.htm

I agree that the Win 209 should be okay.

Pressure changes aren't quite as straight forward or predictable as you might think but unless the load is running max. SAAMI pressure with a standard primer and you sub a magnum primer like CCI 209M or Federal 209A you should be fine.

Longbow

[megasupermagnum]

found my last three cartons of the 209M - the 10% warning is in the fine print at bottom of sleeve - jmho you would be safe increasing powder carge by 10% when using the standard 209's -

FYI, that's not the same as a current CCI 209M, and neither is the stated CCI 209. That looks like a 1980's era CCI box. This is one issue with CCI shotgun primers is they have changed so much in the past. I don't have it memorized, but the CCI 209 has changed at least 3 times. The CCI 209M has changed at least twice. At least CCI has been consistent for the past 20 years now, but before that it gets really hard to keep track of what exact primer the manual states because they never changed the names. A good example is Randy's Federal 209, which in reality was discontinued in the mid 90's, and now they are the Federal 209A. You know they are different. Anyway, I just wanted to share that the only way that warning could possibly be valid is if you found 1980's era load data for a CCI 209 primer because they changed in the 90's, and again in the early 2000's.

[William Yanda]

Lee has made a comment about substituting primers, I suspect if you look for it you can find it.

[FrankJD]

How would Cheddite 209 primers fit into primer swaps regarding CCI and Federal?

[longbow]

As far as I have found Cheddite primers are "mild". There is a chart in Tom Armbrust's report (link in my post above) showing Cheddite primers in comparison to several others and the Cheddite produced the lowest velocity and 3rd lowest pressure out of 10 primers tested.

BPI also has a primer comparison chart you can check but note that primer effect varies with payload and powder charge and this chart is just one load tested with a variety of primers:

https://www.ballisticproducts.com/Im...er_Test_22.jpg

Longbow

[Squid Boy]

Cheddites come in at least 3 flavors. CX-50, CX-1000 and CX-2000. The CX-50 are mild and the CX-1000 is more of a medium power while the CX-2000 seems to be at least as hot as the Federals and maybe a bit more in tests I have had done. Generally and I mean generally, I don't see a lot of difference between primers in loads that are sub 8K psi but above that and near the top they really can make a difference. Thanks, Squid Boy