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Thread: Annealing bottlenecks - how often?

  1. #21
    Boolit Master
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    I always thought that the resizing and especially the following neck expanding step was responsible for much of the brass hardening, but I have never experimented to find out.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by barnetmill View Post
    I always thought that the resizing and especially the following neck expanding step was responsible for much of the brass hardening, but I have never experimented to find out.
    barnetmill -- you raise a good point, as surely any and all working of brass -- hardens it. However, from what I've read through the years, the major "culprit" is from the primer's ignition of powder creating more than sufficient pressure to expand a case which was loose enough to readily chamber into one which is now super-tight; which then, after a short delay shrinks in size enough to enable extraction. YES! re the sizing -- e.g., neck expanding followed by (if employed) crimping.
    geo

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by gumbo333 View Post
    How many have been reloading 40 or 50 years or more and have never annealed anything??? 50 + years ago I must have reloaded some 6mm REM 20 times. Didn’t know what annealing was. All were shot in same rifle, never full length resized ever. Only full length resize now for AR rifles. Anyone?
    I got a 22/250 in 1973 and being a winchester fan - ran Winchester brass - - same as you, never full length resized a case for that rifle - that stuff was super tough/stiff in the neck - I had a little "super simplex" press and dies - (non compound action) ....I battled with the winchester brass for several rounds of reload until a friend gave me some PMC stuff - it ran through the die so easy I had to investigate - ended up neck annealing all that big red W brass - could not believe the difference it made - so when it gets hard to handle I would anneal - dont have records of how many times these cases have been reloaded but for whatever reason only the Winchester brass was hard - PMC, Federal, Remington have come through the door at various times and totally different (just like a fresh annealed Winchester case). I am guessing maybe six or eight reloads per case? dunno - that rifle is about done in from throat erosion at about 4500 rounds total
    The amount of squeeze your size dies put on make a difference too - most commercial die sets are way too hard on brass - take it down too small then expand back up to correct size.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by gnostic View Post
    I wish my cases lasted long enough to benefit from annealing. My cases get loose primer pockets long before they split. Annealing might be beneficial with necked down home made cases...
    never been interested in walking that close to the edge - quite happy to duplicate factory ballistics in high intensity rounds - never had a problem with loose primer pockets.

    ps mine didnt split -just that winchester brass was so hard to work with my little underpowered non compound press - other brands not so .......this is all 40 years ago so probably irrelevant ..............................................

  5. #25
    Boolit Master Rapier's Avatar
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    I anneal before case forming on all cats, then after, if I get sizing die resistance. I also do an initial prep on all of my brass plus a run on a 3 way trimmer after fire forming. I may anneal twice in a 30 x reloads sequence. But shoot mostly cast. High pressure loads cause short case and barrel life.
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  6. #26
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    Well, I'll throw this out there for what it's worth. Years back I picked up a minty Nagant revolver.............brass in those days was scarcer than primers now.......Found some brand new in the box, Bertram...bright shiny and like I said brand new. Stuff started splitting on the FIRST loading! Promptly pulled what I'd put together and torched 'em. Still leaves a bad taste in my craw to this day, managed to pick up some Starline from Graf's thereafter that worked perfectly. For what it's worth!

  7. #27
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    I can't say for all the calibers they make but I got some 50 caliber brass from grafs or track of the wolf, don't remember for sure which one it was and it is much better than what they used to sell. It has gotten to the point that I will take what I can find in that caliber as long as the price is right.

    I annealed once many years ago for 30-06 brass but it really was a waste of time unless I was going for extreme accuracy and then I loaded new good brass.

  8. #28
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
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    I use the Lee FCD for my bottleneck cases, don't crimp in a groove. Don't anneal very often, just plinking and after some hogs sometimes. Anneal to prevent neck splits. My converted BO cases get loose PP after 10 shots so don't anneal them. For heavy bullets in 45/70 or 357m straight wall, makes sense to anneal and trim more often. So far, for bottleneck, trim once and forget it.
    I was shooting AR10 top end loads in MG fired LC cases. Didn't anneal or trim maybe 10 reloads/case. Running about 50k psi. Annealed and trim them for the henry now. I do anneal 30/30 cases after a while as I don't have bunches of it.
    Last edited by popper; 08-16-2023 at 11:21 AM.
    Whatever!

  9. #29
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    I anneal 6.5 CM and trim it after 3 firings. Case life is about 20 shots before the primer becomes too easily inserted. I only neck size after one initial full length sizing.
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  10. #30
    Boolit Master huntinlever's Avatar
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    Thanks for the additional comments, guys. I never used to anneal any of my 45-70, in spite of crimping pretty solidly into the cannelure with the Lee FCD. I use only Starline and have never seen any evidence of neck issues, even after 15 or more firings.

    Now, because I do crimp the bottlenecks (30-30, 30-06, 338 WM), I have just adopted the habit of annealing the 45-70 after every 8 firings (the bottlenecks, so far, after every 4). Probably not needed.

    The 30-30 gets a good crimp into the Speer Hot-Cor 150's for the same reason as the 45-70, lever. The other cartridges, though spire or spire-round point bolt-actions, are all from Hornady and all with cannelures (all Interlocks). On Hornady's advice, I do very lightly crimp all of these into their cannelures. Does that inform any of your thoughts as to frequency?
    Last edited by huntinlever; 08-16-2023 at 06:45 PM.
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  11. #31
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
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    When you roll crimp in a groove it works the mouth real hard so annealing probably helps a lot. All my pistol rnds are taper crimp so I don't bother annealing. All rifle are FCD'd and not a single setback yet.
    Whatever!

  12. #32
    Boolit Master huntinlever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by popper View Post
    When you roll crimp in a groove it works the mouth real hard so annealing probably helps a lot. All my pistol rnds are taper crimp so I don't bother annealing. All rifle are FCD'd and not a single setback yet.
    Popper, I only use FCD's for crimping. These aren't roll crimps, right? So, they're easier on the brass (I know taper is easier).
    -Paul

  13. #33
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    I have never annealed a case. Most of my shooting over the years was with pistol and mostly .45acp. Never had a case split. Most of it was military range 'surplus' and most of my 'losses' were from not finding it on the ground at the range. The commercial stuff (.357mag, .45Colt, etc) was a bit more stressed. Nickel cases did split, after 10 or so reloads. Never did split a brass case.

    Rifle I never experienced a problem. Even when I made 7mm-08 from 7.62 brass or .30 Herrett brass with turned necks.

    Then I got a .223 bolt gun. All jacketed loads, and near max. After 4 or 5 reloads the primer pockets would stretch until the primers would fall out. Eventually I got tired of it and bought Lapua brass. I have 100 of them that have been reloaded over 20 times. No anneal, no split case necks. They were neck sized (Lee collet die) and then FL sized every 5th time. I can't say how accurate the gun was because I am only good enough to hold 1/2MOA consistently.

    My .308 did better. The only case failures I've had were some Hornady brass that went over 25 reloads. These split necks at that point. Mostly cast loads so each reload involved a neck flare and then a slight crimp. Also neck sized most of the time with a Lee collet die. I also have some Lapua brass that was used exclusively with jacketed loads that were over 20 reloads last time I counted. These were FL resized every time. Still no case failures.

    However, if you are chasing the .1's and .2's, then the consistency of annealed necks is probably in your best interest.

  14. #34
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    Agreed.
    Kalifornia passes "feel good" legislation hand over fist, legislation that is looking for a problem to solve and affecting only law abiding persons.

    So, after 40 years of that nonsense, that's why I now live in Arizona.

  15. #35
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  16. #36
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    Hunting/plinking then every 3-5 rounds or so. Match rifles get no more than two shots.
    I also think that dies cause a lot of work hardening. Have a few dies that would take the necks down about .010" under loaded round dimensions (one was .015") and expect the expander ball to bring it up to where there is only .002-3 neck tension for bullet seating.
    I have replaced those dies with newer versions that are easier on brass.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by dogrunner View Post
    Well, I'll throw this out there for what it's worth. Years back I picked up a minty Nagant revolver.............brass in those days was scarcer than primers now.......Found some brand new in the box, Bertram...bright shiny and like I said brand new. Stuff started splitting on the FIRST loading! Promptly pulled what I'd put together and torched 'em. Still leaves a bad taste in my craw to this day, managed to pick up some Starline from Graf's thereafter that worked perfectly. For what it's worth!
    Yup, Bertram brass, the quality has never equaled the astronomical price. But for some of us, it's the only way to shoot. Too bad that Jamison went out of business, as their brass was top-notch and reasonably priced. I anneal my Bertram's like clockwork, and carefully, especially when it's .600 Nitro at the price a decade ago of $200 a box of 20. But the brass you pay this astronomical amount for, is below even average quality. Such is the world we live in.

  18. #38
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    I first annealed brass back in the late 1960's. I had read an article - Gun Digest, Handloader's Digest (?)- about some one with 7mm Rolling Block was well above 100 reloads with the 20 rounds he talked about. He annealed about every 10 shots best of my recollection. I did not have a ready supply of 30-30 brass so I started annealing. When I got older (richer?) I didn't anneal as much as brass was easier to get. Now I have a fancy annealing machine so I anneal every time. I do notice a more consistent fell when neck expanding. More accurate, maybe? Moderate loads help brass last many reloadings. I have lost brass to neck splits, but usually it is that shiny ring that indicates the threat of case head separation that causes me to toss brass. I still manage 15-20 loadings with my 'stretchy' Savage 99's in 300 Savage and 308. I do not usually anneal handgun brass, though I did anneal 357 when going to .256 Magnum.
    Last edited by MostlyLeverGuns; 12-11-2023 at 12:33 PM.

  19. #39
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    I never anneal pistol brass. It is cheap. Rifle yes for better accuracy and brass life. This is very true on some odd ball stuff like 577-450 or 11mm Mauser. These are getting up around 5 -6 $ per case. You do wharever you can to prolong life.

  20. #40
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    I anneal the brass for my mil-surps due to large necks in the chamber. Seems that my 8mm yugo mauser is the worst offender and a 303 not far behind. I neck size with a Lee collet as it works the brass less. I just do what I can to extend brass life.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check