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Thread: Trying to Make to Predict Performance Against a Skull

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy HumptyDumpty's Avatar
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    Trying to Make to Predict Performance Against a Skull

    I wasn't sure where to ask this, hopefully this is the right place.
    I'm interested in testing the performance of several "weak" rounds, such as 32 S&W and 25 ACP from diminutive pocket-guns, against a human skull. There are some very nice dummy heads and bodies available for ballistic testing, but they are expensive. Given the breadth of knowledge present on this forum, I was wondering if anybody knew what would be required to make an accurate analogue. Can I get useful information from the bones at my local butcher shop, or is there some other material that would work better?

  2. #2
    Boolit Buddy
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    I doubt that there is an exact analog for living human cranial bone and tissue. You might try searching the forensics literature using Google Scholar for medical autopsy and emergency treatment literature.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    Hog??? Cattle??
    Never gave it much thought as most Slaughter houses by me use a 22RF, bang stick...right between the eyes... Pole Axes 'em...

  4. #4
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    Actual accounts indicate perpendicular hits will penetrate. At some point they will skid as the angle increases. I know someone the was shot in the forehead just below his helmet with a 9mm. The shot came for below him and skidded along his skull than followed the shape of his helmet an hitting the top of his body armor on his back.

    Having many slaughtered hogs and cattle with a 22RF the spot that allows for penetration is relatively small.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
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    "The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
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  5. #5
    Boolit Grand Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    Like M-Tecs I have killed hogs, cattle, horses with a .22lr, some rifle, some with pistol.
    I helped a vet put down an old mare with a Heritage pistol. He told me how to make the X, right eye to left ear, left eye to right ear. Where they crossed was the spot. Tricky part was waiting until the head was neither raised nor lowered.

    My first shot on a pig failed because it had its nose up. Second one worked though.

    Even if the pocket pistols don't always have the speed of the .22lr, they do tend to have boolits that are twice as heavy or more. Instead of 36 or 40 grains they tend to shoot 90 to 110 grain bullets. To me that spells better penetration through bone. For penetration, too much speed is contra-indicated. Can actually lower penetration.
    I truly believe we need to get back to basics.

    Get right with the Lord.
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    May the Lord bless you and keep you. May the Lord make His face to shine upon you and be gracious unto you
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  6. #6
    Boolit Buddy HumptyDumpty's Avatar
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    Interesting notes about slaughtering livestock; I have no experience with that, so it is helpful to hear. The two main drivers her, are my Walther Model 5 (2" barrel, 25 ACP), and a snub-nosed top-break in 32 S&W Short (also 2", with a cylinder too short to be helpful). On the rare occasions when I actually carry these tiny pistols, I've wondered whether it would be better to direct their miniature fury towards the thoracic cavity, or the cranium, especially with soft lead in the 32. I recall vividly an account in one of Jim Cirillo's book, of LRN 38 Special failing to penetrate a criminal's skull. Of course, that may have been the equivalent of winning the lottery.

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    Boolit Master
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    Jorge Sprag " The Slingshot Channel " on YT uses a coconut cast inside ballistic gelatin.
    QUIS CUSTODIET IPSOS CUSTODES?

  8. #8
    Boolit Buddy HumptyDumpty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdfoxinc View Post
    Jorge Sprag " The Slingshot Channel " on YT uses a coconut cast inside ballistic gelatin.
    I like that idea. At the very least, if the round fails, I know the odds aren't in my favor.

  9. #9
    Boolit Buddy
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    Not exactly a skull, but Paul Harrell on youtube has a meat target that he tests with all kinds of ammo. Gives some information regarding penetration.

  10. #10
    Boolit Bub
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    Hello:
    YOUR MOTHER INLAW
    I didnt type that
    Head Shot

  11. #11
    Boolit Buddy HumptyDumpty's Avatar
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    So, I called up Ballistic Dummy Labs, and they agreed to sell me one of their skulls, without any of the "brains", for $50. That's a fraction of what the completed heads normally cost, so it seemed justifiable to me. I intend to make a video comparing results with the skull, a coconut, and a section of cow tibia or femur, if I can find a butcher to sell me one. I'll post a link here, once I get everything put together.

  12. #12
    Boolit Grand Master



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    For me the question is using your listed firearms can you hit the skull square enough to not skid? That would be a 2 1/2" to 3" target under high stress?
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
    – Amber Veal

    "The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
    - Wayne Dyer

  13. #13
    Boolit Buddy HumptyDumpty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Tecs View Post
    For me the question is using your listed firearms can you hit the skull square enough to not skid? That would be a 2 1/2" to 3" target under high stress?
    At the close ranges these guns are intended for, there are certainly scenarios wherein I would feel confident in my ability to hit the head, especially with the revolver. I honestly don't know how close to 90 degrees the impact must be, and with such low-powered rounds, similar problems could be presented by ribs, items in pockets, or features of clothing, as happened with president Mckinley. I'll try to hit the skull and coconut at multiple angles.

  14. #14
    Boolit Grand Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    At the range the RSO on duty upon seeing my NAA Ranger II 5 shot revolver in .22mag commented "that's a Nose gun, wait till he is close enough, stick it in his nose. Lead him where you want him. Let him go as long as he is no longer trying to harm you or yours.

    Seemed to make sense to me. Also a part of me would like to add "Are you ready to wake up in Hell tomorrow morning? If not you might want to consider some major life changes.
    I truly believe we need to get back to basics.

    Get right with the Lord.
    Get back to the land.
    Get back to thinking like our forefathers thought.


    May the Lord bless you and keep you. May the Lord make His face to shine upon you and be gracious unto you
    and give you His peace. Let all of the earth – all of His creation – worship and praise His name! Make His
    praise glorious!

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by HumptyDumpty View Post
    Interesting notes about slaughtering livestock; I have no experience with that, so it is helpful to hear. The two main drivers her, are my Walther Model 5 (2" barrel, 25 ACP), and a snub-nosed top-break in 32 S&W Short (also 2", with a cylinder too short to be helpful). On the rare occasions when I actually carry these tiny pistols, I've wondered whether it would be better to direct their miniature fury towards the thoracic cavity, or the cranium, especially with soft lead in the 32. I recall vividly an account in one of Jim Cirillo's book, of LRN 38 Special failing to penetrate a criminal's skull. Of course, that may have been the equivalent of winning the lottery.
    Some Scribes would have us al Packing a 45 Race pistol, or going unarmed... the 22rf is much more potent than Most give it credit for..
    I prefer to trust it more so than either the 25 or the 32S&W...the 32S&W Long however, loaded to the same Pressure as the 32S&W, that I trust...Maybe I should Test My Theory...Nah...someone either Has, or Will....

  16. #16
    Boolit Master hoodat's Avatar
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    Years ago, a guy I worked with at the mill showed up one Monday morning with a bandaid taped near center of his forehead. I asked him what happened, and he said his crazy girlfriend shot him in the head. Story was .25 ACP from a few feet away.

    I was kind of skeptical, but a few days later, off came the bandage, and -- it looked believable. Horrible round divit, not a grazing or glancing shot. jd
    It seems that people who do almost nothing, often complain loudly when it's time to do it.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
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    A friend's brother is a trauma surgeon in a major metropolitan hospital. He states that more people have been killed with. 22LR than any other caliber.
    QUIS CUSTODIET IPSOS CUSTODES?

  18. #18
    Boolit Bub Jungle Dave's Avatar
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    Not sure this will help the discussion in any way, but a friend of mine had to put down a donkey that had become quite insane. Estimated distance of 8 paces with a 9mm and fmj. The bullet bounced or skidded right off the skull without any effect at all except perhaps giving the poor animal more problems in the upstairs department. A lot depends on the angle of the shot. Human skulls are a lot less formidable, but with a .25 ACP it could do the same thing. The .32 S&W, I would tend to think would do better, as pure lead has a tendency to 'grab' better and break through. Just some thoughts.

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by HumptyDumpty View Post
    I wasn't sure where to ask this, hopefully this is the right place.
    I'm interested in testing the performance of several "weak" rounds, such as 32 S&W and 25 ACP from diminutive pocket-guns, against a human skull. There are some very nice dummy heads and bodies available for ballistic testing, but they are expensive. Given the breadth of knowledge present on this forum, I was wondering if anybody knew what would be required to make an accurate analogue. Can I get useful information from the bones at my local butcher shop, or is there some other material that would work better?
    In the past, when talking with medical professionals and ballistic experts, consensus has led to, a firm head of cabbage, will supposedly duplicate the human scull, close enough for penetration testing..

  20. #20
    Boolit Buddy HumptyDumpty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLAHUT View Post
    In the past, when talking with medical professionals and ballistic experts, consensus has led to, a firm head of cabbage, will supposedly duplicate the human scull, close enough for penetration testing..
    No kidding? Well, I can certainly add that to the list of items for comparison. I'm really looking forward to conducting this test. The dummy skull should ship sometime next week, and my local supermarket can provide all the necessary produce.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check