Antique Afghan firearms

[Battis]

I was talking to a local resident and the talk turned to firearms. She said that she had a collection of old guns and was wondering if I knew anything about them. She sent me the following pic. Some of them are Afghan, some are from Turkey. The Afghan rifles are called Zehail, and were usually made from old British firearm parts. I'm not sure what the inlays are made of. I don't think they want to sell the guns, just want info on them. The locks have dates on them, from early to late 1700s.
I hope to see them in person soon.

[M-Tecs]

First question should be how she got them and when they came into the US. Khyber Pass fakes appear to be far more common than real ones. The bazaars in Afghanistan sell them by the thousands. Some are very good and impossible or almost to tell from originals. I was at one that had a Winchester 1895 in 405 that I almost purchased. It was 100% correct on the outside. When I opened the action it was close but clearly not a real Winchester.

[beechbum444]

First question should be how she got them and when they came into the US. Khyber Pass fakes appear to be far more common than real ones. The bazaars in Afghanistan sell them by the thousands. Some are very good and impossible or almost to tell from originals. I was at one that had a Winchester 1895 in 405 that I almost purchased. It was 100% correct on the outside. When I opened the action it was close but clearly not a real Winchester.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, Some one, a skilled trade smith in Afghanistan made a Winchester 1895 rifle clone in 405 with their bare hands and minimal tools, in a road side tent that was very very close to the original rifle????

[Battis]

They inherited the guns from a family member in Australia. That's about all I know. I will find out more when I see the guns. I read about fakes being very common.

[M-Tecs]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, Some one, a skilled trade smith in Afghanistan made a Winchester 1895 rifle clone in 405 with their bare hands and minimal tools, in a road side tent that was very very close to the original rifle????

OK I will correct you. You are wrong.

Don't have a clue (nor did I care since fake is fake) if it was a single person that built it or if it was one of the small factory's that copy numerous firearms with various manufacturing methods including CNC's. They range from crude to excellent. While I never owned a 1895 in 405 I have owned one in 30/40 Krag and am very familiar with the internals. The one I looked at was not an original despite outward appearance. I was looking for a real Synder or Martini-Henry for myself. After inspecting several hundred I never found one I was willing to purchase for myself but i did bring a couple of dozen back for others.

Synder's and Martini-Henry seemed to be the most common from what I've seen, however, the FA stuff was not allowed to be purchased by US troops at the bazaars I was allowed to go to. Browning HP's were common also. The Jezail Musket's were very common around the US bases in Afghanistan. Some of the fake Martini-Henry's were very very good and they have been imported or smuggled in the US in large numbers.

Some of the Khyber Pass guns were 100% handmade and other were manufactured at least in part on CNC machines. Some examples here:

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...pass-industry/

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/brit...eal-t7712.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khyber_Pass_copy

https://silahreport.com/2019/08/23/t...e-khyber-pass/

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...arms&FORM=VDRE

[GregLaROCHE]

There are lots of them for sale over here. The prices are usually much lower than other muzzle loaders. Probably because the quality of workmanship isn’t there. At least the ones I looked at. Often pieced together and not all original. They are usually inlayed with brass and mother of Pearl. I’ve seen some with gem stones too.
Im aware of all the copies being sold. They may be better crafted the antique ones.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

A couple of those swords appear to be Japanese, or copies.

DG

[Battis]

So, I'm thinking that any traditional methods of IDing these guns, or placing a value on them (condition, provenance, etc) don't apply. Condition might not be important, or where it came from, or markings on the metal, etc.

[GregLaROCHE]

So, I'm thinking that any traditional methods of IDing these guns, or placing a value on them (condition, provenance, etc) don't apply. Condition might not be important, or where it came from, or markings on the metal, etc.

The real value is what someone is willing to pay for it. They are sort of a curiosity, that’s why I thought one picking one up.

[Battis]

Well, that went off the rails quickly. I saw the woman today who had approached me about IDing the guns, and she immediately launched into an anti- 2nd Amendment tirade. I had spoken to her maybe two or three times before (dog walking) and I knew she was a liberal but I kept politics out of it. Well, she didn't. That'll teach me to try and help a Massachusetts liberal woman ever again. Hypocritical little....ah, not worth it.

[Sasquatch-1]

You should have told her that according to BATF, muzzleloaders are not firearms.

[DougGuy]

Yeah and the SAME hypocrite will be the one screaming bloody murder PUHLEEZ somebody come and help! HELP!! HELP!! Hoping and praying that somebody with a GUN will come to her rescue.

The hell of it is somebody with a gun could come get her out of a jam she would have not gotten out of if not for the gun, and chances are she will STILL rail against the 2nd. You can't fix stupid.

[KenH]

Bummer on the result - I might have humored the lady just to see the weapons first hand. With all that anti-gun stuff, why did she have those in the house?

[Battis]

I did tell her that they're not considered firearms by the feds. Made no difference.
Come to find out, she's part of an anti-gun organization - Mothers against guns or something like that. We had quite a lively "discussion" in a field (walking my dog) and other lib women joined in. I'm thinking that because of the organization she belongs to, she felt maybe a little hypocritical about having any firearm in the house, even heirlooms, and had to make a show of it. Oh well. Just wanted to walk my dog...

[405grain]

If your doggo takes a dump on her lawn - don't pick it up.

[Battis]

It's a farm a couple hundred acres in size. Plenty of room to avoid people, but my dog likes her dog.

[john.k]

The people who bought my yard go back and forth to A/stan......he ships car parts to all over the ME.......anyhoo,I mentioned guns.....and he's pffft.......carpets is where its at ,hes buying genuine antique carpets.

[elmacgyver0]

Tell her they are illegal full auto muzzle loaders and need to be turned into the police.

[GregLaROCHE]

If she’s so anti gun she should sell them to you for a dollar to be rid of them.

[Battis]

I think she'd give them to me. She's really into the anti gun thing, way more than most. She had stats and theories that were basically left wing BS talking points. There's no reasoning with people like that. She said that guns were now the #1 killer of kids and I pointed out that they raised the age of a "kid" to 18 to pad those stats. Well, she said that studies now show that a person's frontal lobe of the brain isn't fully developed until they're 24 yrs old, so basically, up to age 24, people are still "kids." Crap like that...