357 mag hunting loads

[wolfdog]

https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/rel...c=true&type=53

This should settle it.

That's where I got my data *shrugs*.

[wolfdog]

wolfdog, you are not shooting enough bullets to determine an accurate load with 3 shot groups. The statistics are working against you.

Of course, if you have a crappy three shot group it will not improve, but an acceptable 3 shot group can be plain luck. It tells you very little. You will end up chasing your tail.

Now, look at the time and resources you have expended to get a cast bullet to hunt with. Is it worth it? The XTP's are working well and will do a great job on deer and two legged critters. They are cheap when you are using less than a 100 a year to hunt with. Unless you are doing crop damage hunts how many rounds will you use a year?

Here is a link to ballistic testing that will show you how various commercial bullets perform:
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/rev...s-test/#357mag

It looks like your XTP's are a good choice. I might try the 135 gr Gold Dots as well.

I will be working up a load for a 9mm carbine this year for coyotes and home defence using jacketed bullets. Then I will find a cast plinking load that shoots to the same POI. I will not care how hard the alloy is or needing GC's. My alloy is 92-6-2 and will make a crappy hunting bullet but for plinking it will not matter. And until primers drop into the $50/k range, I will not be plinking with a CF anyway. Cheaper ways to me get trigger time.

I bought 1000 124 gr XTP's for $200 delivered. I doubt it will take more 200 rounds to find "the load". That leaves me with 800 bullets for serious work...a lifetime supply of excellent bullets (for this old man).

I do not drink the cast bullet Kool-Aid when it comes to hunting or self defense bullets. With primers at $100/k and powder at $45/lb finding a good load gets expensive fast. Then there is the dinking around with alloys, bullet profiles, lubes (first shot and cold weather issues) and what size works. I KISS with jacketed bullets. YMMV.

I disagree. My three shot groups are not enough alone, but over multiple groups they will start to show a trend. I still shoot for fun and the time and resources expended are the reason I'm out there. I've killed several game animals with cast and 100% utilize them as a hunting round, including with this 357. That's the 1st box of XTPs I've bought in 10 years. I know they work and that 100 should last me another ten years. But I will be using a cast load this year from several rifles for hunting. With almost sure success. I 100% will stop with a project when I'm not seeing any returns, such as my 9mm where there were no signs of success the whole time. But I think I'm on track for good things from the 357mag. Now that I have a couple loads that show signs of good groups I can really focus on those and see if one stands out after multiple sessions. This should give me enough trigger time to really work on my fundamentals as well. Afraid I'm just not in this camp, I use jacketed when I think it best. But I use cast in a lot of my guns to great success.

358-158 GC, tumble lubed, 1600fps with a full charge of IMR4227

379-250 tumble lubed, 1700fps
358-200 GC, tumble lubed, 1900fps

Same load as the pig.

[megasupermagnum]

I really think you are hindering yourself with 3 shot groups. You are also seeming to want to practice your shooting while doing this, and it's not a good idea. Bench shooting, and field shooting are two different skill sets. There's obviously some carryover, but the entire point of bench shooting is to take as much human out of shooting as possible. This is more true for handgun shooting than anything. Resting your barrel on a sandbag is not enough. A proper bench shooting for load workup has the handgun rested, your wrists also propped up, your elbows propped up, and I personally like to have my chest leaning against the bench. You need to focus on maintaining a consistent grip, but it's not necessarily a grip you would use in the field.

Once you have that all squared away, you are wasting time with 3 shot groups. I get what you are saying with saving components, but that's not the way. You are introducing far too many factors, and 3 shots is statistically nothing. At a bare minimum, 6 shots from a 6 shot revolver is an acceptable start. You can at least weed out the dead ends. It's also good for a safety check, but it isn't a good way to check accuracy changes from small changes such as powder charge. From there I prefer to up the number of groups, vs upping the number of shots per group. My gold standard is 25-30 shot averages. I do these for each variable. You might be able to get away with a single 10-12 shot group for general load workup, but it will not allow you to fine tune a load.

[wolfdog]

I really think you are hindering yourself with 3 shot groups. You are also seeming to want to practice your shooting while doing this, and it's not a good idea. Bench shooting, and field shooting are two different skill sets. There's obviously some carryover, but the entire point of bench shooting is to take as much human out of shooting as possible. This is more true for handgun shooting than anything. Resting your barrel on a sandbag is not enough. A proper bench shooting for load workup has the handgun rested, your wrists also propped up, your elbows propped up, and I personally like to have my chest leaning against the bench. You need to focus on maintaining a consistent grip, but it's not necessarily a grip you would use in the field.

Once you have that all squared away, you are wasting time with 3 shot groups. I get what you are saying with saving components, but that's not the way. You are introducing far too many factors, and 3 shots is statistically nothing. At a bare minimum, 6 shots from a 6 shot revolver is an acceptable start. You can at least weed out the dead ends. It's also good for a safety check, but it isn't a good way to check accuracy changes from small changes such as powder charge. From there I prefer to up the number of groups, vs upping the number of shots per group. My gold standard is 25-30 shot averages. I do these for each variable. You might be able to get away with a single 10-12 shot group for general load workup, but it will not allow you to fine tune a load.

I don't bench shoot much, so I'm know I'm not going to get bench type accuracy. I believe you are correct when you say a three shot group doesn't tell you much, but I don't think that can be said when you to multiple three shot groups over time. Eventually you start seeing a pattern developing. If I have one three shot group that produces a 3" group at 30 yards and one that produces an 8" group. There's not much of a chance that that 8" group is going to be the superior one. Can I make mistakes? Sure...but generally not quite that badly. Now that I've narrowed it down I'll spend a lot more time shooting bigger groups and more groups of the same couple loads at different ranges etc and see what one tends to average better over the course of several trips. When I was playing with my 380s and a couple different seating depths and bullet shapes over the course of a few hundred rounds, my shooting got better and better over the weeks. I was still able to tell which of my two bullets shot better and which fed better over all. But the repeated trigger time also lead me to get more proficient with that gun. I've not shot the 357 for a few years and it shows, a little more trigger time will do me good I think. If I can get 2-3" groups at 30, I'm hitting my deer so I'm not worried about fine tuning after that.

[wolfdog]

I was recently checking one of my reloading books and they list a cast bullet load with H110 all the way down to 13grns. 15 should be safe. I put 15 rounds down the gun today, bore is spotless other than some powder granules. My fifty yard shooting needs work but I'm consistently holding 3-4" groups at 30 yards. Things are looking more centered, I discovered I pull left more off a rest than freehand. Technique issue for sure.

[megasupermagnum]

I was recently checking one of my reloading books and they list a cast bullet load with H110 all the way down to 13grns. 15 should be safe. I put 15 rounds down the gun today, bore is spotless other than some powder granules. My fifty yard shooting needs work but I'm consistently holding 3-4" groups at 30 yards. Things are looking more centered, I discovered I pull left more off a rest than freehand. Technique issue for sure.

Yes, you are perfectly safe. I'm guessing you looked in the Hornady manual. A lot of their maximum loads are at or below most manuals starting loads. Thats the only manual I ever got rid of.

[Recycled bullet]

What kind of grouping are you making when you load and aim and shoot three cylinders full at the center of a nine inch white paper plate at thirty yards?

[Willie T]

Wolfdog, I have done a lot with .357 magnum revolvers. Both targets and hunting. With your H-110: ease the charge up 0.1 grains at a time from your 15.0. Somewhere between 15.3 and 15.6, depending on headstamp, the case fill will be so that the base of your bullet sits right on top of the powder with no air space or compression. In my experience that is a good place to be with H-110 accuracy wise. I shoot gas checked semi wad cutters conventionally lubed for texas whitetail and feral hogs. 3-5 percent tin in your alloy will add toughness and malleability. In turn that will give you expansion that holds together. Sorting your projectiles by diameter measured two ways so you are sizing round Bullets minimally, in essence mostly just truing them up, then sorting by weight after sized and lubed will make a marked difference in how tight they shoot for you as you extend range. As for pushing shots left, here is some stuff to consider, or not... For a right handed shooter: too little finger in the trigger will manifest in pushing the gun left. Too much finger in the trigger will cause you to pull shots right or low and right. Experiment with slight adjustments of finger position in or out on the trigger to find your sweet spot with that particular pistol and it will tighten up some for you. More grip pressure in the off hand and less grip pressure in the strong hand can help as well by letting your trigger finger work independently without influence on your grip which translates to a steadier hold while you break the trigger and will lead to a cleaner follow through. After you have a solid load that shoots tight, extending your distance will magnify flaws in your technique. In turn it will magnify the progress you make and give you solid feedback when you find the right path. Dry fire practice with a nickel balanced on the front blade is good practice. When you can consistently break the trigger without upsetting the dime while the sights do not waver on the target you will shoot pretty close to the potential of your handgun and ammo.
I enjoy reading your posts. You are enjoying the journey and working out your own details. That is where it is at.
Tight groups
Willie

[wolfdog]

For jacketed, I rarely use hornady, for cast, I sometimes think the lower charges are more accurate. 15grns seems like it works, but I wonder if I slow it down a bit, if I'll get better results. Never hurts to try.

[wolfdog]

I tend to get a 4" cluster with 2-3 outliers bringing it to about 6".

[wolfdog]

Wolfdog, I have done a lot with .357 magnum revolvers. Both targets and hunting. With your H-110: ease the charge up 0.1 grains at a time from your 15.0. Somewhere between 15.3 and 15.6, depending on headstamp, the case fill will be so that the base of your bullet sits right on top of the powder with no air space or compression. In my experience that is a good place to be with H-110 accuracy wise. I shoot gas checked semi wad cutters conventionally lubed for texas whitetail and feral hogs. 3-5 percent tin in your alloy will add toughness and malleability. In turn that will give you expansion that holds together. Sorting your projectiles by diameter measured two ways so you are sizing round Bullets minimally, in essence mostly just truing them up, then sorting by weight after sized and lubed will make a marked difference in how tight they shoot for you as you extend range. As for pushing shots left, here is some stuff to consider, or not... For a right handed shooter: too little finger in the trigger will manifest in pushing the gun left. Too much finger in the trigger will cause you to pull shots right or low and right. Experiment with slight adjustments of finger position in or out on the trigger to find your sweet spot with that particular pistol and it will tighten up some for you. More grip pressure in the off hand and less grip pressure in the strong hand can help as well by letting your trigger finger work independently without influence on your grip which translates to a steadier hold while you break the trigger and will lead to a cleaner follow through. After you have a solid load that shoots tight, extending your distance will magnify flaws in your technique. In turn it will magnify the progress you make and give you solid feedback when you find the right path. Dry fire practice with a nickel balanced on the front blade is good practice. When you can consistently break the trigger without upsetting the dime while the sights do not waver on the target you will shoot pretty close to the potential of your handgun and ammo.
I enjoy reading your posts. You are enjoying the journey and working out your own details. That is where it is at.
Tight groups
Willie

Lots of practice this year for sure, but I will be ready by hunting season. I took out the 9mm with green dot and was putting 5 shots into a 2" group at 25 yards consistently. Out at 50 I wasn't doing so well with that either. I could hit a man sized target 2/3 but no groups to speak of. More practice for sure. That trigger on the Canik takes some getting used to. If you don't hold it down through the ful recoil cycle and try to come off early, it will double tap on you every time. Short reset and LIGHT.

[wolfdog]

Did another range trip, worked up to 16.0grns of H110 with my 158grn PC bullet. Did 3 groups of six at 30 yards. Whole group was about 6" with one flier which opened it to 8. I've been working on my grip and trigger finger position, and things were nicely centered. This was off my knee from a sitting position in rather heavy wind. I noticed that where and how I rest my arms changes impact of the group. I need to work on being more consistent with my field position. Zero leading so at least I know bullet fit/hardness and powder charge are working. One pull of the bore snake and everything was back to mirror.

[Recycled bullet]

That's excellent man you are building a strong foundation with the 357 blaster. If you integrate calisthenic exercise then you can work on shrinking group size when your blood is up.

I like to do inclined pushups and basic yoga spine stretches in between shooting groups with handguns.

If you can shoot well under less than ideal conditions you are conditioning yourself to shoot competently under almost all conditions.

[Gray Fox]

Doesn't somebody make a leather sling gadget that goes between the knees to support the forearms for pistol shooting? It would seem that would aid consistency. I'm sure I've seen it, but can't recall where. GF

[wolfdog]

That's excellent man you are building a strong foundation with the 357 blaster. If you integrate calisthenic exercise then you can work on shrinking group size when your blood is up.

I like to do inclined pushups and basic yoga spine stretches in between shooting groups with handguns.

If you can shoot well under less than ideal conditions you are conditioning yourself to shoot competently under almost all conditions.

I work out now and again. I run about a 12 min 1.5 mile, and incorporate moderate weight lifting and regular cardio with running and mountain biking. We often hike 5-6 miles on the weekends with the dogs. I'm a bit out of shape right now, I used to run a 10:40, but I'm in my mid 40s so that's not as easy as it used to be.

[wolfdog]

Doesn't somebody make a leather sling gadget that goes between the knees to support the forearms for pistol shooting? It would seem that would aid consistency. I'm sure I've seen it, but can't recall where. GF

I'm just going to work on my consistency, for hunting situations, there's usually something I can rest against and my off hand isn't awful. I think it's just about putting rounds down range at this point. I've killed deer with the 357 but got out of practice over the past few years. Kinda working my way back into it.

[megasupermagnum]

I'm just going to work on my consistency, for hunting situations, there's usually something I can rest against and my off hand isn't awful. I think it's just about putting rounds down range at this point. I've killed deer with the 357 but got out of practice over the past few years. Kinda working my way back into it.

A method I use for field shooting is to rest my stronghand wrist on an object. It can be a tree limb, side of a deer stand, a fence, or whatever. The key is you are maintaining that same grip. A second method a lot of people use is to sit with your back against something solid, and grip your wrists and handgun between your knees which is a very stable way of shooting, but you are changing your grip compared to most things, and I find it often shoots a little lower than most other methods. When hunting from the ground you can't afford too much movement either, so you kind of have to take what you can get. What often happens for me is I'll be sitting with one knee up, and you can use that to stabilize on your wrist or forearm just like anything else. The keys to that is you need a good solid back support, and you also need a good solid grip and wrist. Don't aim with your wrists, aim with your torso. Ideally your arm and grip would look identical no matter the position you are in. If you happen to be caught flat footed, or flat legged when an animal comes by the best you can do is wait until they are concealed and get a knee up. If they happen to be really close, that's one good reason to practice free hand shooting. With practice a 25 yard free hand shot is not that hard. It all really comes down to grip and trigger control. Sight alignment matters, but it's a distant 3rd, most people do it just fine. It's the clean trigger break without getting target panic that is difficult.

[wolfdog]

A method I use for field shooting is to rest my stronghand wrist on an object. It can be a tree limb, side of a deer stand, a fence, or whatever. The key is you are maintaining that same grip. A second method a lot of people use is to sit with your back against something solid, and grip your wrists and handgun between your knees which is a very stable way of shooting, but you are changing your grip compared to most things, and I find it often shoots a little lower than most other methods. When hunting from the ground you can't afford too much movement either, so you kind of have to take what you can get. What often happens for me is I'll be sitting with one knee up, and you can use that to stabilize on your wrist or forearm just like anything else. The keys to that is you need a good solid back support, and you also need a good solid grip and wrist. Don't aim with your wrists, aim with your torso. Ideally your arm and grip would look identical no matter the position you are in. If you happen to be caught flat footed, or flat legged when an animal comes by the best you can do is wait until they are concealed and get a knee up. If they happen to be really close, that's one good reason to practice free hand shooting. With practice a 25 yard free hand shot is not that hard. It all really comes down to grip and trigger control. Sight alignment matters, but it's a distant 3rd, most people do it just fine. It's the clean trigger break without getting target panic that is difficult.

I do some archery hunting as well and I can get away with some movement if timed right. That said, I've had a doe bust me drawing once and a yote best me pulling back the hammer on my ML. I agree with you about shooting techniques. I shot offhand, and arms between knees, and arm across single knee, using my tire as a back brace. What I found as that I get slightly different POIs from all those positions. Not massive, but enough so that I could tell the difference between groups when I was done. My 6" cluster was all centered, but if I were to mark it by shooting position, you can definitely see trends. My offhand at 25 isn't bad at all, my worst group was rested across my hood of my car, it seems to open up the group and pull it way left. Between my knees also had POI shift. This is why I'm starting my shooting in April..so I have time to find all these things and address them. What positions I shoot best at etc.

[Gray Fox]

I have often used the one hand on a support with the handgun supported crossing over it. This is a very useful field technique when using and good wooden walking staff especially if the supporting hand is itself supported by a leather or paracord loop. You can even add a second loop at a mid-height that will work if you take a knee. Both of these techniques will also work if you lay a rifle forend over the support wrist. You have to really check your zero with this method as there is no downward pressure on the rifle. GF

[wolfdog]

I have often used the one hand on a support with the handgun supported crossing over it. This is a very useful field technique when using and good wooden walking staff especially if the supporting hand is itself supported by a leather or paracord loop. You can even add a second loop at a mid-height that will work if you take a knee. Both of these techniques will also work if you lay a rifle forend over the support wrist. You have to really check your zero with this method as there is no downward pressure on the rifle. GF

I've seen that as well. I'm noticing that a handgun, like other arms seems to want to "kick off" hard supports more than soft supports. I hadn't really thought about that before but it makes sense. Now the question is, is one more accurate than the other and is one more repeatable. If both are similar but change POI a bit, just means I have to remember two zeros.