Vintage Shotgun Load?

[harringtondav]

Winchester Model 12 - 16ga. s/n 423231. Apparently produced in 1914.
I moved it from my Dad's house over 30 yrs ago. ....only had it out of the case a couple times.
I've only fired a scatter gun a handful of times. I understand shot size, but know zero about loads and power.
My question which loads are available, and safe to fire in this gun?
I'm still working through his long guns. I want to fire each. So thanks for the help.
Dave

[HWooldridge]

Any modern factory load with lead shot should be safe. However, I probably wouldn’t shoot steel shot.

[mulespurs]

If my memory serves me correctly Some early m-12's in 16 guage were chambered at the factory for a 2 9/16" shell and not the later commom 2 3/4" ammo.

The shell lenth is measured after firing so the longer ammo will chamber and when the crimp unfolds into the chamber , the chamber is not long enough so the case expands into the forcing cone,thus causing increased pressures.

I would check the barrel to see if it is stamped 2 3/4" or have someone carefully measure chamber length before you shoot it. It should be fun.

I wish you all the best.

mulespurs

[stubshaft]

Winchester did not chamber their 16 and 20 gauge guns to 2 3/4" until 1927. You can have it modified but it entails much more than just deepening the chamber and there are those that wholehearted believe that shooting a 2 3/4' shell in a short chamber is safe.

I generally shoot low pressure loads in all of my shotguns manufactured before 1933. Those nitro proof and fluid steel barrels were designed to use the smokeless powder available at that time, which did NOT generate the pressure we see today.

[harringtondav]

Thanks. I believe there are one or more boxes of 16 ga. shells in one of Dad's reloading/ammo trunks. ....likely 2 9/16". But they are dusty and look old, but probably OK to fire.
Are 2 9/16" shells still available in case I get cold feet with the old shells?

ps. I like your tag line. If I ever attach mine it will be "Old too soon, smart too late".

[harringtondav]

Thanks. No chamber length stamp. I have old inside calipers that should get me w/in 1/8", but based on following posts I reckon it's 2 9/16".
I see you're in NW IA. Where? I'm in Cedar Falls in the winter, at our Dubuque Miss. river house in good weather.

[mulespurs]

20 miles west of Spirit Lake Ia


Not quite retired, I'll be 70 in April.

Going to take off time from work and ride mules in several states this year.

I haven't rode one into the bar again lately.

[turtlezx]

best to set up a loader for that gun

[Toolmaker TN]

My M12 was made in 1919, and it has the 2-9/16" chamber.
Any M12 with a 2=3/4" chamber will be stamped "16Ga. 2-3/4"
2-9/16" shells are not available, haven't been for years. I shoot 2-1/2" shells in mine. When I bought the gun, I bought 10 boxes of Gamebore shells for it. Unfortunately, they are not currently available. I set up a press to load the shorter shells.
You can still get RST shells in 2-1/2". You might have to search online for them, but they are available.

[megasupermagnum]

There is a very good chance it is a 2 3/4" chamber. When you measure, you have to remember the cartridge headspaces inside the frame of the model 12, not the barrel. A stupid simple method of measuring chambers I've found is to take a 20 gauge empty shell, and grind the rim down until it just slips inside the chamber of your barrel. It doesn't have to be perfect. Just slide that shell in backwards until it stops, which is the start of the forcing cone. You can even do this with the barrel on the frame. If a 2 3/4" shell ground like this sits flush with where a 16 gauge shell would end, you have a 2 3/4" chamber.

As for pressure, you are perfectly fine to use most any loads. Shotgun pressures are very low, and despite what stubshaft says, I've never seen evidence that old powders produced less pressure than todays powders all else equal. If anything it was greater. Old powders such as Dupont bulk smokeless produced poor velocity vs pressure. Even compared to a "modern" target shotgun powder like Red dot (came out in 1932), dupont bulk smokeless is listed at higher pressure and lower velocity than Red dot. Your barrel would not stand up to steel shot, but other than that you are fine. Even if you find you have a 2 9/16" chamber, one common choice today is Remingtons game load, which despite saying 2 3/4", is actually a 2 9/16" shells. I would verify the new loads after Remingtons bankruptcy 3 years ago are still made this way. There are not a ton of variation on 16 gauge ammo. Federal, Winchester, and Remingoton all make a basic 1 oz load which is a fine choice for a lot of things. They also make a few 1 1/8 oz field loads. Only Federal still makes a 1 1/4 oz load that I've seen. It's a really good choice for pheasants. There are some specialty brands out there, and sometimes you see imported brands like Browning and Fiocchi, but their loads are basically the same 1 oz and 1 1/8 loads. That's all lead shot. There are some options for bismuth out there too.

[stubshaft]

RST makes low pressure 2 9/16" shells.

[trapper9260]

best to set up a loader for that gun

I am thinking the same thing so it will be what you need it to be. Just need the basic loader.

[trapper9260]

Thanks. No chamber length stamp. I have old inside calipers that should get me w/in 1/8", but based on following posts I reckon it's 2 9/16".
I see you're in NW IA. Where? I'm in Cedar Falls in the winter, at our Dubuque Miss. river house in good weather.

I am about 1 hour drive from you when you in Ceder Falls .

[Newtire]

Winchester did not chamber their 16 and 20 gauge guns to 2 3/4" until 1927. You can have it modified but it entails much more than just deepening the chamber and there are those that wholehearted believe that shooting a 2 3/4' shell in a short chamber is safe.

I generally shoot low pressure loads in all of my shotguns manufactured before 1933. Those nitro proof and fluid steel barrels were designed to use the smokeless powder available at that time, which did NOT generate the pressure we see today.

I wouldn't advise shooting the longer 2-3/4" shells in that short chamber. I have a 1925 model 16 ga. They were made on the 20 ga. Frame and are a great gun and will handle the pressures of today's powders OK. You'll find that the ejection port is too short to allow the longer 2-3/4 shells to pass thru after firing. Get set up and buy a case trimmer. Use load data for 2-3/4" shells from today's powder manufacturers. Watch out for some of the hotter loads put out by one of the aftermarket component companies who I won't name.

[Funky]

Black Remington Game Loads measure close to 25/8 after firing. I had my M12's chamber lengthened and they changed the timing of the ejector and the Rem. hulls work fine, the black Herters are a little shorter, the purple Herters are quite a bit longer and they hang up. I use the purple Herters in my breakopen shotguns. Good Luck and Good Shooting Chris

[Funky]

I forgot in my original post that You could use Mag-Tech brass hulls, no special tools. I drill out mine to use shotgun primers, of course You would want to see where they land when You eject them so You don't lose them.(Or let me know, so I could hunt for them)

[Duckiller]

My father who passed away in the 70s had a 16 ga model 12 labeled for 2 9/16. When only 2 3/4 inch shell were he took his gun to a smith to have chamber lengthened. Smith measured chamber and said didn't need to do anything, they were long enough. Have no idea when my father bought the gun. Sometime between WWI and WWII. Montgomery Wards messed up the barrel putting an polychoke on it so it went down the road.

[Newtire]

I believe that sometime after 1925 or 1927, they standardized the 16's to a uniform 2-34". That 16 ga. is a nice size gun.