Excessive Headspace and Sizing Cases

[ascast]

I've gotten somewhat lost in this thread, but my 2 cents:
1 -- Lots of these guns saw VFW display duty and had the chambers WELDED up prior to issue. No amount of lube or epoxy is gonna fix that. Maybe do a chamber cast to help see.
2 -- I don't know of any one who does "chamber insets", but it sure could be done by somebody with skill and patience. Somebody used to make 30-06 to 308 adapters Maybe that could be glued in.
3 -- Re-barrel is generally done with a deep cut around barrel in a lathe just ahead of the receiver to relieve stress. That will ruin any collector value for use or display. Also if planning a chamber rework, you will probably want the receiver off. But you have ruined the barrel in taking it off, so maybe just plan on a new/replacement barrel.
4 -- WWll replacement are around but I've not seen one in years. Takeoffs will most generally have the stress cut.
5 -- It does also take a special vice to pull those barrels. They are bigger than the '03, Mausers, 700 etc.

6 -- ask me how I know this.....

[MostlyLeverGuns]

Depends on how much excessive headspace? I use Redding Competition Shellholders - starting with the +.010 and moving though +.008, +.006...., sizing cases FIRED IN THE RIFLE, checking case fit in the rifle until the bolt closes 'comfortably'. I size 'range' cartridges for a 'tighter', going to the next shellholder for hunting. The 1917 Enfield has a larger barrel thread diameter, a square thread, many Enfield Barrels are extremely difficult to remove, sometimes requiring a relief cut in the barrel at the receiver face, but places like Shaw, McGowen do make barrels for them. The Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP) has barrels for the 1917 Enfield (Criterion) and may install them.

[1hole]

The pic you claim is overheated is from Lapua's web site of a new 30/06 case. https://www.lapua.com/product/30-06-...-case-4ph7068/

Read again and note I didn't say the case was overheated because I can't possibly know that; I did say it looks overheated; big difference! (Photos can do things like that.)

Therefore your obviously extensive search for supporting evidence to prove me wrong is meaningless and a waste of your no doubt valuable time.

Once again you are misreading/misunderstanding my post. Never stated holding the shoulder bump to .001" less.

??? Now you try to make a distinction without a difference.

I did state holding consistency of a .001" or less with properly annealed cases is very doable.

And I say it's virtually impossible to get such constancy in a reloaded case except by chance; it's just not doable for more than two cases in a row. Laupua cases seem to be the best available and even they have too much variation in blank alloys/hardness, wall thickness and annealing to resize many shoulders consistent to a spread of less than a thou! And that is, ipso facto, evidence that us sweating over such precision in shoulder set back isn't especially helpful.)

The RCBS case mics and the Hornady case comparator are both capable of .001" resolution with the proper feel. That applies to most precisions measuring instruments like micrometer and dial calipers. If you force mic's you can get considerable errors.

I don't recall you asking what any of us may be using to measure set back. But, precise measuring skill and feel IS a very demanding part of consistency isn't it?

Both my RCBS Precision Mic's and Stoney Point/Hornady case comparator are calibrated off of actual headspace gauges. The headspace gauges are verified using 100 to 1 optical comparator.

I use and like both the Precision Case Mics and Hornady's version but I DON'T kid myself about resizing cases by using chamber headspace gages. Headspace gages are special drop-in tools for gun makers and gunsmiths chambering new barrels to meet SAMMI specifications, they're not working tools for reloaders.

"Headspace gages" are chunks of steel, they obviously should be repeatedly measurable. (After all, what could change on one of them from one day to the next?) We are simply reloaders working with thin brass containers, not with solid steel transfer gages.

Sweating any case shoulder measurement back to SAAMI standards is ONLY important when making factory ammo that may then be safely fired in any SAAMI gaged firearm. If simply duplicating factory ammo was/is the reloader's goal there is little to be gained by hand loading no matter what gages are used. But, I have to wonder what you really think would be the practical value of headspace gages and optical comparators reading 100:1 to a reloader?

Finally (and include yourself) tell us how many reloaders you know of who use such accurate measuring tools as yours. And might you also tell us how many of those people find those measurement tools simplify producing the marvelous finished cases (i.e., holding sized cases to well under .001" tolerances) you say that you achieve?

[M-Tecs]

Read again and note I didn't say the case was overheated because I can't possibly know that; I did say it looks overheated; big difference! (Photos can do things like that.)
Therefore your obviously extensive search for supporting evidence to prove me wrong is meaningless a a waste of your no doubt valuable time.
??? Now you try to make a distinction without a difference.

And I say it's virtually impossible to get such constancy in a reloaded case except by chance; it's just not doable for more than two cases in a row. Laupua cases seem to be the best available and even they have too much variation in blank alloys/hardness, wall thickness and annealing to resize many shoulders consistent to a spread of less than a thou! And that is, ipso facto, evidence that us sweating over such precision in shoulder set back isn't especially helpful.)

I don't recall you asking what any of us may be using to measure set back. But, precise measuring skill and feel IS a very demanding part of consistency isn't it?
I use and like both the Precision Case Mics and Hornady's version but I DON'T kid myself about resizing cases by using chamber headspace gages. Headspace gages are special drop-in tools for gun makers and gunsmiths chambering new barrels to meet SAMMI specifications, they're not working tools for reloaders.

"Headspace gages" are chunks of steel, they obviously should be repeatedly measurable. (After all, what could change on one of them from one day to the next?) We are simply reloaders working with thin brass containers, not with solid steel transfer gages.

Sweating any case shoulder measurement back to SAAMI standards is ONLY important when making factory ammo that may then be safely fired in any SAAMI gaged firearm. If simply duplicating factory ammo was/is the reloader's goal there is little to be gained by hand loading no matter what gages are used. But, I have to wonder what you really think would be the practical value of headspace gages and optical comparators reading 100:1 to a reloader?

Finally (and include yourself) tell us how many reloaders you know of who use such accurate measuring tools as yours. And might you also tell us how many of those people find those measurement tools simplify producing the marvelous finished cases (i.e., holding sized cases to well under .001" tolerances) you say that you achieve?

I've competed with and became friends with many very serious rifle competitors that use these methods or more advanced methods and tighter tolerances than I use. Currently my methods and equipment are far behind the cutting-edge competitors. The exception is the optical comparator. That is something only machinists tend to have access too. That was included as to how I make sure my headspace gauges are correct. I have owned three headspace gauge that were off more than .0015”. I have also had out of spec chamber reamers also.

Currently the very serious LR competitors are very fond using pressure sensing equipment to measure bullet seating force.



Same for induction annealers. I still use my Bench Source gas.

The Savage/Bergara barrel nuts system has become very popular. Using and owning headspace gauge is very common for those that use these rifles as a switch barrel or when they replace a shot out barrel. Also headspace gauges they work great for calibrating the Hornady indirect readings into direct readings inspection like the RCBS precision mic. Yes lots of people use headspace gauges for other than chambering a barrel.

At a minimum, anyone that reloads for multiple rifles or calibers will benefit from having a method to accurately measure the shoulder bump.

One clarification. I am using the term shoulder bump as the actual clearance between the chamber headspace and case shoulder datum. That is commonly how the term is used with the serious competitors also. Stating .0015 or .002” actual clearance is more correct. That is were using headspace gauges or a direct measurement like the RCBS precision mic works best for seating shoulder clearance.

I only barrel match or service rifles for friends or fellow competitors. Normally they get a barrel stub chambered to the shoulder to use as a bullet seating gauge and a shoulder bump gauge. It is engraved with the overall dimension with a minimum headspace gauge and what their actual headspace of their chamber is. Zero is light resistance on the minimum gauge with nothing as large as closing on a plus 002” gauge. I call that plus .0015.

As you are aware the brass does spring back some. Using brass that has been fire formed to that chamber of a bolt gun rarely requires more than a .001 bump to maintain a .0015 clearance that many strive for. With the AR match and service rifles the shoulder datum on fired cases seems to vary up to .003”. Holding a .001” tolerance on sized brass from the same headstamp and chamber is not a challenge if you know what you are doing. Using mixed headstamp brass out of multiple chambers that has not been properly annealed not so much. Again look at Lapua as to what proper looks like.

The point of all this to make people aware of what different methods are available and then they can decide what method is best for them. If they don't want to use them that their choice. If they don't know about them then their choices are limited.

You don't believe I am holding the claimed tolerances. That is your choice. Same as my not taking you seriously when you look at a picture straight from Lapua and claim it “looks over heated????” Lapua is arguably the finest brass maker in the world. Since the Lapua, LC and Hornady examples all look the same that strongly suggests what you think looks proper is the actual problem.

Having shot Lapua and LC for 30 plus years knowing what a properly annealed case looks like “is burnt into my memory”. Pun intended. Yes, typing into the search engine “Lapua Brass and Lake City Brass” was a great waste of a total of a minute and a half of my time.

When I was 17 (1977) I started working on a pipeline construction project. One of the engineers was claiming he was on a military shooting team competing at a 1,000 yards with iron sights. I thought he was full of it and stated such. That was not one of my finer moments particularly considering later I would be doing the same later with both service rifles and match rifles on a national level for the military.

I am not nearly as serious about BPCR but many question the viability of using a 45/70 at a 1,000 yards. I seem to remember you making that claim about using a 45/70 for long range a while back. A 45/90 or a 45/100 may be a better option but the 45/70 is still competitive as seen by the many using it successfully in competition.

Do 1970’s techniques still work as well as they did in 1970? Yes, the do. Does that mean state of the art in 1970 is still state of the art today? Probable not.

When I am faced with a challenge that I can't successfully do yet others are doing successfully I tend to figure out what I am doing wrong. I learned my lesson in 1977. That was a lost opportunity that would have benefited me greatly when I got into Highpower competition.

Until you know and understand what methods and results the current national and world champions are capable of you will never know what you don’t know. If you don't know it how do you know if their methods will benefit you or not?

If all that you want is close to 1 MOA three shoot groups out of a quality rifle with only with three or four loadings of case life the very basic instructions included with the die set will get you there. After that you are depending on luck not knowledge.

This all started with

It looks like my M1917 has just a bit of excessive headspace as evidenced by protruding primers and excessive case stretching rings using full power loads. If I use reduced loads, this seems to not be an issue. My question is there a way to adjust your die to resize your case to accommodate for this longer chamber? Or after you have fire formed the cases, then would neck sizing only be best because the case is now a fit for the chamber? It seems the headspace is not TOO excessive that it needs gunsmith work but want to hear what you experienced folks and maybe some gunsmiths have to say. Thanks in advance.

Setting the dies to achieve a .002" shoulder clearance will meet the OP requirements. Claiming that is not possible due to spring back laughable.

A quarter turn to a standard die produces some 18 thousants of change; that's a huge difference when making bottle neck case headspace adjustments!

There is no reason to adjust bottle neck shoulder set back for one or two thousants, fired case's lengths spring back that much same as does case diameter.

IF we want max case life as well as easy chambering simply adjust the FL sizer to duplicate the fired shoulder length, there's no need for sizing it back any further.

[M-Tecs]

Starting at 4:50 Erik Cortrina gives one of the better explanations of shoulder bump/clearance I've seen. He holds numerous world and national titles in long range rifle and F-Class.

[M-Tecs]

Some good details of setting up your shoulder bump here.

[M-Tecs]

This is one example of state-of-the-art methods I was referring to. Not needed for most but knowing what's available allows you to take it to the next level if you want. I taught a high school classmate how to use a Lee whack-a-mole in 1975. He used it up until about 5 years ago when he was killed in an accident. He would load a box of rifle ammo every couple of years. He would shoot 2 deer a year. The next level for him was never need or wanted. For some 1970 methods are all they need or want. Others not so much. I personally know a couple of dozen people that have similar set-ups to the one bellow.

[TD1886]

They are neck sizing dies only. Using a full-length die would defeat the purpose.

You can use Body Dies that are designed to full length resize the case body, bump the shoulder position for proper chambering, but not size the neck at all. I used Redding S Die's without the bushing installed when I used them with the lee.

The Lee worked great when new. The issue I had was after 3k to 6k even using the best lubricants on the camming surface they would be less consistent. After 3 or 4 I gave up on them. I mostly use Redding S dies. For competition ammunition I use the S die without an expander button since all the necks are the same thickness. For hunting and prairie dog ammo I still use the Redding S die but with a carbide expander button using a neck bushing based on the thinnest necks.

https://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...ee-collet-die/

https://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...shoulder-bump/

I wonder if your problem with the LEE collet die is from the threads on the aluminum retaining cap giving and or setting then the camming surfaces. Do you think the camming surfaces are wearing or sticking, that is not moving freely. I have some special grease compounded from a geophysicist friend of mine and it's some of the best grease I've ever used.

I have a Hornady (generally I despite them and most my dies are Redding) that is a bushing 308 neck sizer and the die also can bump the shoulder.

When I was target shooting I would turn all my necks to the same thickness and use a correct bushing to size for the internal diameter I wanted and not use an expander ball. Speedy Gonzales and Arne Brennen advise me to go for .0005 clearance between the case neck and the chamber wall.

[M-Tecs]

I wonder if your problem with the LEE collet die is from the threads on the aluminum retaining cap giving and or setting then the camming surfaces. Do you think the camming surfaces are wearing or sticking, that is not moving freely. I have some special grease compounded from a geophysicist friend of mine and it's some of the best grease I've ever used.

I have a Hornady (generally I despite them and most my dies are Redding) that is a bushing 308 neck sizer and the die also can bump the shoulder.

When I was target shooting I would turn all my necks to the same thickness and use a correct bushing to size for the internal diameter I wanted and not use an expander ball. Speedy Gonzales and Arne Brennen advise me to go for .0005 clearance between the case neck and the chamber wall.

I don't have a definitive answer. At least one had galling issues so various high-test lubes were used on the camming surface with limited success. Ultimately, I believed the material used in the collet wasn't up to high volume usage. I intended to make a copy of the design using quality spring steel to see if that would resolve the issues. About that time we started getting issued enough M118LR so the need to make Mexican Match from M118 Special Ball went away. Same for the motivation to make a copy out of quality spring steel.

Other than for Mexican match I have not neck sized only since the later 80's or early 90's. For me neck sizing has more disadvantages than advantages.

[megasupermagnum]

This is one example of state-of-the-art methods I was referring to. Not needed for most but knowing what's available allows you to take it to the next level if you want. I taught a high school classmate how to use a Lee whack-a-mole in 1975. He used it up until about 5 years ago when he was killed in an accident. He would load a box of rifle ammo every couple of years. He would shoot 2 deer a year. The next level for him was never need or wanted. For some 1970 methods are all they need or want. Others not so much. I personally know a couple of dozen people that have similar set-ups to the one bellow.

I think you bring up a good point, and part of that is volume. There's a lot of people out there that want, or at least think they want more accuracy than they currently have, but wont be shooting thousands of rounds like you were. I have never worn out a Lee collet die, but I doubt I've put 5000 cases though any one die either. Maybe 1000 through my 308 one. When a collet and cup is less than $10 to replace, I can live with that. You were shooting at a pace far above mine is now.

One of the reasons I've gravitated to this system is it allows more consistent brass at no extra cost. What I do is I buy Lee 4-die sets, and drill out the neck to make them a body-only sizing die. By eliminating the expander ball, you make your life so much easier for headspace control. For no extra cost I can now control headspace as good as any die out there, with the caveat, I have to anneal my cases which you have covered earlier. Despite my rather barbaric annealing methods according to some members, my cases have been quite consistent. I don't have a fancy seating pressure tool like shown, but the target speaks for itself. My basic annealing is more consistent than not annealing. Anything is better than nothing. I anneal every single time on my bottleneck cases.

As for the Lee collet necksizing die, it brings two things to the table that can be beneficial. The first is the concentricity is phenomenal by normal die standards, and along with that you are sizing to the ID of the neck. I'm sure bushing dies are pretty good, but to really get their full effect you would need to turn your case necks to get a consistent neck tension. I'm guessing bushing dies work pretty good with great brass like Lapua, but I'm not sure they are so good with basic Lake City machine gun cases. The other thing Lee collet dies bring is the ability to change your neck tension the same as bushing dies do. I still bell case mouths for cast bullets and other flat based bullets, but I avoid expanders whenever possible which only add variables. The mandrels are mostly common between calibers, so one set can cover most 30 calibers, or 7mm, or 6.5mm or whatever calibers you shoot.

I'm able to keep headspace at or under .001" variance, and concentricity about the same, and I'm doing that with a basic set of Lee dies most people scoff at, and an annealing setup most people already have in their garage. That precision shooter stuff is one deep rabbit hole though once you start getting into 10+ set brass prep, .01 grain powder charges, and seating pressure gauges. That's beyond me, that's beyond what I can get interested in.

Hopefully this helps someone who wants to take their brass consistency to the next step without spending hundreds of dollars.

P.S. Those Lee dies are hard as woodpecker lips. I've managed to drill out the necks of my FL sizing dies in a drill press, but definitely go slow, lots of oil, and your drill bit will probably need sharpening after one die. No need to do anything with the expander ball, it wont touch your case neck if you drilled out the die, and it will still function as a decapper.

[TD1886]

I think you bring up a good point, and part of that is volume. There's a lot of people out there that want, or at least think they want more accuracy than they currently have, but wont be shooting thousands of rounds like you were. I have never worn out a Lee collet die, but I doubt I've put 5000 cases though any one die either. Maybe 1000 through my 308 one. When a collet and cup is less than $10 to replace, I can live with that. You were shooting at a pace far above mine is now.

One of the reasons I've gravitated to this system is it allows more consistent brass at no extra cost. What I do is I buy Lee 4-die sets, and drill out the neck to make them a body-only sizing die. By eliminating the expander ball, you make your life so much easier for headspace control. For no extra cost I can now control headspace as good as any die out there, with the caveat, I have to anneal my cases which you have covered earlier. Despite my rather barbaric annealing methods according to some members, my cases have been quite consistent. I don't have a fancy seating pressure tool like shown, but the target speaks for itself. My basic annealing is more consistent than not annealing. Anything is better than nothing. I anneal every single time on my bottleneck cases.

As for the Lee collet necksizing die, it brings two things to the table that can be beneficial. The first is the concentricity is phenomenal by normal die standards, and along with that you are sizing to the ID of the neck. I'm sure bushing dies are pretty good, but to really get their full effect you would need to turn your case necks to get a consistent neck tension. I'm guessing bushing dies work pretty good with great brass like Lapua, but I'm not sure they are so good with basic Lake City machine gun cases. The other thing Lee collet dies bring is the ability to change your neck tension the same as bushing dies do. I still bell case mouths for cast bullets and other flat based bullets, but I avoid expanders whenever possible which only add variables. The mandrels are mostly common between calibers, so one set can cover most 30 calibers, or 7mm, or 6.5mm or whatever calibers you shoot.

I'm able to keep headspace at or under .001" variance, and concentricity about the same, and I'm doing that with a basic set of Lee dies most people scoff at, and an annealing setup most people already have in their garage. That precision shooter stuff is one deep rabbit hole though once you start getting into 10+ set brass prep, .01 grain powder charges, and seating pressure gauges. That's beyond me, that's beyond what I can get interested in.

Hopefully this helps someone who wants to take their brass consistency to the next step without spending hundreds of dollars.

P.S. Those Lee dies are hard as woodpecker lips. I've managed to drill out the necks of my FL sizing dies in a drill press, but definitely go slow, lots of oil, and your drill bit will probably need sharpening after one die. No need to do anything with the expander ball, it wont touch your case neck if you drilled out the die, and it will still function as a decapper.

I agree with a lot that you said. I have found that all of LEE's dies that are hardened are indeed as hard as woodpecker lips. Even harder then other brand dies. The trouble with expander balls is their extree friction and drag. Even if you clean the inside of the case neck they still have it to some degree. I wish that they could find a materail that was harder and more slick. I don't like, but do, lubing the inside of the neck. The reason I don't like this is that in my opinion it is also a lubricant for lubing the bullet you are seating and you don't have the proper neck tension pull on that bullet. So you have to clean that lube out. With bushing dies even with uneven military necks are real bad as long as you deal with the expander ball problems just mentioned. One thing I don't like about the LEE collet die is the flimsly aluminum cap on top. I know if you use the die proper you shouldn't damn that caps threads, but it happens. Why LEE didn't make that from steel I don't know. A thing I don't like about LEE's bullet seater dies is that they don't guide or support the bullet enough. You are dependant on the nose and the base holding the bullet straight. Look at their original LEE Loader die. It fully supports the bullet. I have modified many LEE seater dies to support the bullet more inline. This is why I like the Forester Benchrest seating dies. Many people don't know that you can buy the inserts for the Forester Benchrest seater dies and not have to buy the entire die. Much cheaper. The only thing with the Benchrest die is that you can't crimp the case mouth.

[45_Colt]

The trouble with expander balls is their extra friction and drag. Even if you clean the inside of the case neck they still have it to some degree. I wish that they could find a material that was harder and more slick.

I've been using carbide expanders on several rifle cartridges. They are much smoother and I don't lube the inside of the necks. Redding and on occasion Lyman are in dies here.

45_Colt

[TD1886]

I've been using carbide expanders on several rifle cartridges. They are much smoother and I don't lube the inside of the necks. Redding and on occasion Lyman are in dies here.

45_Colt

I use the carbides too and they are much smoother. I don't lube for those though. Just brushing out the case neck is good unless I vibrate clean the cases then the inside of the necks are pretty clean.

[M-Tecs]

I agree with a lot that you said. I have found that all of LEE's dies that are hardened are indeed as hard as woodpecker lips. Even harder then other brand dies. The trouble with expander balls is their extree friction and drag. Even if you clean the inside of the case neck they still have it to some degree. I wish that they could find a materail that was harder and more slick. I don't like, but do, lubing the inside of the neck. The reason I don't like this is that in my opinion it is also a lubricant for lubing the bullet you are seating and you don't have the proper neck tension pull on that bullet. So you have to clean that lube out. With bushing dies even with uneven military necks are real bad as long as you deal with the expander ball problems just mentioned. One thing I don't like about the LEE collet die is the flimsly aluminum cap on top. I know if you use the die proper you shouldn't damn that caps threads, but it happens. Why LEE didn't make that from steel I don't know. A thing I don't like about LEE's bullet seater dies is that they don't guide or support the bullet enough. You are dependant on the nose and the base holding the bullet straight. Look at their original LEE Loader die. It fully supports the bullet. I have modified many LEE seater dies to support the bullet more inline. This is why I like the Forester Benchrest seating dies. Many people don't know that you can buy the inserts for the Forester Benchrest seater dies and not have to buy the entire die. Much cheaper. The only thing with the Benchrest die is that you can't crimp the case mouth.

Currently my highest volume rifle loading is my prairie dog loadings at between 3k and 6K a year. I use mixed brass with about 75% being Lake City GI. For medium accuracy high volume loadings like these I use a Redding S die with a bushing that is larger than a traditional solid FL die. The bushing size is selected based on the thinnest necks. I still use a carbide button for better neck tension consistency since most of the necks are thicker, but you are still working the necks less than using a traditional solid FL die. If found with traditional FL dies and a steel expander the shoulder data length COULD/DID be increased due to the expander button pulling it out.

Unlike some here I love Hornady One Shot Lube with the caveat that it must be fully dry before sizing. I give it 1/2-hour minimum dry time.

These are all loaded on a progressive with a case feeder in batches. Normally batches are 1K to 3K. First, they are all sized and deprimed, followed by tumbling in corn cobb to remove the One Shot lube. Next batch is priming, powder drop and bullet seating.

If I opt to wet tumble with SS pins that is done before sizing. For that I use a universal deprimer on the progressive with a case feeder so doing a couple of thousand an hour or more is not a problem. I started doing this after discovering the SS pins were peening the case mouth slightly. That being said I don't have a clue if it makes a difference, but it makes me feel better. I also don't like how dry and sticky the SS wet tumbling leaves the necks. The SS tumbled brass will be lubed and sized with the Hornady One Shot and corn cob tumbled so my guess is a light coating of oils from the corn cob and or the One Shot remains. They don't tarnish like the straight wet SS does.

My criteria for medium accuracy high volume loading is a 1/2 MOA average out to 300 yards for 5 shots. Some groups will be smaller and some larger but average will be about 1/2 MOA out to 300 yards.

[TD1886]

Currently my highest volume rifle loading is my prairie dog loadings at between 3k and 6K a year. I use mixed brass with about 75% being Lake City GI. For medium accuracy high volume loadings like these I use a Redding S die with a bushing that is larger than a traditional solid FL die. The bushing size is selected based on the thinnest necks. I still use a carbide button for better neck tension consistency since most of the necks are thicker, but you are still working the necks less than using a traditional solid FL die. If found with traditional FL dies and a steel expander the shoulder data length COULD/DID be increased due to the expander button pulling it out.

Unlike some here I love Hornady One Shot Lube with the caveat that it must be fully dry before sizing. I give it 1/2-hour minimum dry time.

These are all loaded on a progressive with a case feeder in batches. Normally batches are 1K to 3K. First, they are all sized and deprimed, followed by tumbling in corn cobb to remove the One Shot lube. Next batch is priming, powder drop and bullet seating.

If I opt to wet tumble with SS pins that is done before sizing. For that I use a universal deprimer on the progressive with a case feeder so doing a couple of thousand an hour or more is not a problem. I started doing this after discovering the SS pins were peening the case mouth slightly. That being said I don't have a clue if it makes a difference, but it makes me feel better. I also don't like how dry and sticky the SS wet tumbling leaves the necks. The SS tumbled brass will be lubed and sized with the Hornady One Shot and corn cob tumbled so my guess is a light coating of oils from the corn cob and or the One Shot remains. They don't tarnish like the straight wet SS does.

My criteria for medium accuracy high volume loading is a 1/2 MOA average out to 300 yards for 5 shots. Some groups will be smaller and some larger but average will be about 1/2 MOA out to 300 yards.

I'm sitting, not literally, one of those GIANT Rubber Maid plastic tote bins FULL of one fired 5.56 brass from my local National Guard. They weren't suppose to dispose of them at the local recycle center, but did. My real good friend ran the center and called me right away to come get them. I don't know how many is in that tote, but it has to be the tens of the thousands.

[M-Tecs]

I think you bring up a good point, and part of that is volume. There's a lot of people out there that want, or at least think they want more accuracy than they currently have, but wont be shooting thousands of rounds like you were. I have never worn out a Lee collet die, but I doubt I've put 5000 cases though any one die either. Maybe 1000 through my 308 one. When a collet and cup is less than $10 to replace, I can live with that. You were shooting at a pace far above mine is now.

One of the reasons I've gravitated to this system is it allows more consistent brass at no extra cost. What I do is I buy Lee 4-die sets, and drill out the neck to make them a body-only sizing die. By eliminating the expander ball, you make your life so much easier for headspace control. For no extra cost I can now control headspace as good as any die out there, with the caveat, I have to anneal my cases which you have covered earlier. Despite my rather barbaric annealing methods according to some members, my cases have been quite consistent. I don't have a fancy seating pressure tool like shown, but the target speaks for itself. My basic annealing is more consistent than not annealing. Anything is better than nothing. I anneal every single time on my bottleneck cases.

As for the Lee collet necksizing die, it brings two things to the table that can be beneficial. The first is the concentricity is phenomenal by normal die standards, and along with that you are sizing to the ID of the neck. I'm sure bushing dies are pretty good, but to really get their full effect you would need to turn your case necks to get a consistent neck tension. I'm guessing bushing dies work pretty good with great brass like Lapua, but I'm not sure they are so good with basic Lake City machine gun cases. The other thing Lee collet dies bring is the ability to change your neck tension the same as bushing dies do. I still bell case mouths for cast bullets and other flat based bullets, but I avoid expanders whenever possible which only add variables. The mandrels are mostly common between calibers, so one set can cover most 30 calibers, or 7mm, or 6.5mm or whatever calibers you shoot.

I'm able to keep headspace at or under .001" variance, and concentricity about the same, and I'm doing that with a basic set of Lee dies most people scoff at, and an annealing setup most people already have in their garage. That precision shooter stuff is one deep rabbit hole though once you start getting into 10+ set brass prep, .01 grain powder charges, and seating pressure gauges. That's beyond me, that's beyond what I can get interested in.

Hopefully this helps someone who wants to take their brass consistency to the next step without spending hundreds of dollars.

P.S. Those Lee dies are hard as woodpecker lips. I've managed to drill out the necks of my FL sizing dies in a drill press, but definitely go slow, lots of oil, and your drill bit will probably need sharpening after one die. No need to do anything with the expander ball, it wont touch your case neck if you drilled out the die, and it will still function as a decapper.

But, but, but, but, but I have it on good authority that holding or measuring a .001" or less is not possible for the shoulder datum.........................

Now back to reality very good ammo can be produced with very minimal methods as you have stated.

Going back to the late 60's early 70's another classmate and friend of mine's father had a Remington 722 in 222 Remington. That was the only centerfire rifles he owned and shot everything with it legal or not. Other than prairie dogs, coots and cormorants I am not sure if he ever shot anything that wasn't out of the delivery truck window or of the top of his station wagon. That includes deer. At the time the 222 Rem was not legal for deer. He owned the Bridgeman milk distributorship. He supplied milk to a bunch of small towns over many counties. At that time they made the ice-cream on site. He was the owner/deliveryman, his wife did the books and one other employee made ice-cream. During hunting/fur season he would drive the gravel roads to do deliveries. He would shoot the heads off pheasants with the 222 Rem. Also not legal. Lots of fox and coyote met their end from that rifle and very basic loading methods.

His reloading method was a nothing more than a Lyman 310 tong tool with no powder measure or scale. He used two cups and a spoon for a measure. He held the case over the cup and poured powder until it overflowed than he used a straight edge to level the powder. With a couple of taps the powder would settle some and he would seat the bullet. That was a common method for that powder and the 222 Rem at that time. I only saw it shot for groups a couple of times but I remember it would hold around 1 MOA to 1 1/4" at 100 yards for five shots. Once the cases became sticky he gave them to someone else to be FL sized.

Later when my buddy started loading for his 243 Win he solely used Lee dippers without a scale. He did talk another classmate into the pout to fill method for his 243. The results were almost blowing up the rifle. While the rifle a Remington 700 didn't come apart the barrel, action, bolt and stock were damage beyond the point salvage. They did pound the bolt on a fence post until it broke off. It was sent into Remington. I read the less than kind response from Remington. That was a very long time ago but I remember Remington stating the case head was pressure welded to the bolt face and the case was pressure welded to chamber.

[M-Tecs]

I'm sitting, not literally, one of those GIANT Rubber Maid plastic tote bins FULL of one fired 5.56 brass from my local National Guard. They weren't suppose to dispose of them at the local recycle center, but did. My real good friend ran the center and called me right away to come get them. I don't know how many is in that tote, but it has to be the tens of the thousands.

Never counted a 5-gallon bucket of 5.56 brass but I recently did 3,300 rounds of 5.56 brass for a buddy. The bucket wasn't to the top. Just a guess but I would bet the bucket would hold 500 to 700 more.

I don't have a case counter on any of my progressive's, but I do save the primer box for a rough count.