Interesting 20ga Slug and Buck loads about to get tested. What do you think?

[John in WI]

Over the past 2 years or so, I've really become a fan of the 20ga. Funny how buying a well used import SXS seems to have multiplied into a Mossy pump and 3 single shots...
Anyway, a few weeks ago I posted some images of "socket slugs" that I was trying to figure out and was debating trying to install a tail drag section, or try to use them as "wad slugs" with a non-discarding wad that would serve as the drag stage. I wasn't very happy with the results, but finally bought some un-slit wads from BPI. The socket slugs (if I remember, these were 11 or 12mm) fit perfectly without bulging. And the unslit wads don't have a cushion stage. It adds several millimeters to the overall length of the slug. It should be enough to stabilize it in flight a little bit. The slug/wad combo weighs just a hair over 1/2 ounce.
The other thing I've been playing with are buckshot loads for the 20ga. I worked up (and had tested) some "duplex" loads, using layers of 2 #1 and 2 #F pellets. 2 layers is exactly 1/2 ounce.
So after firing some commercial "slug and buck" 12ga loads, I thought I'd try to cook some up for the 20ga, using a socket slug and 2 layers of buck. I thought it would be a really mean close range round, with a .50 full wadcutter and 8 pellets of buck.
These loads have NOT BEEN pressure tested--I loaded 6 and will send them off. It's a weird setup, and I hope I guessed at the pressure/velocity. But I won't be firing them in my shotgun until the numbers are in.
I just wanted to show the idea, and see if anyone had thoughts on it.
I loaded these with 16.2gr WSF in 3" new hulls from BPI. Unlike the commercial slug and buck loads, which put the slug behind the shot, I put the slug up front. I can't imagine firing a slug through a cloud of pellets would help accuracy at all--I'm hoping I get the slug to hit POA, and the 8 pellets to make some kind of decent pattern around it.
The column was assembled with 16.2gr WSF under a AA wad with the petals cut off. On top of this, a cork disk. Then 2 layers of 2 #1 and 2 #F buck (1/2 ounce). On top of that, an overshot card, and on top of that, the non-discarding sabot slug. I roll crimped it to the slug, which seem to hold them tight and is actually cool looking visually.

What do you guys think? My Shotshell Reloading Handbook has 1oz loads with a similar wad and WSF powder at 16.5gr 10,600psi and ~1190. I went a little bit lighter on the WSF (16.2gr) because I have no idea what the effect of essentially having 2 wads (and gas seals) in place. It might increase the pressure, but the roll crimp might reduce the pressure, so I just took an educated guess. As I said this has NOT BEEN tested, and is by no means an endorsement of this being a good or safe idea. I'll post the numbers when I have them, one way or the other.

I thought I'd put this on Cast Boolits, with a big "thank you" for all the interesting work, and the number of dumb questions that everyone has patiently answered. For the number of trades and purchases I've made, and for just general interesting and useful conversation. There's a reason I've been posting and lurking here for 15 years.

[rintinglen]

"Buck and ball" revisited! Back in the revolutionary war days, paper cartridges having a ball and several "swan" shot were used in those .70 and .75 caliber muskets. I think this would be devastating up close, say 15 yards and in, provided it hits somewhere close to where you point it.

[lar45]

I like it.
Those socket slugs look great.

[stubshaft]

Please post the results as I find this very interesting.

[John in WI]

I read something about the old musket ball and buck loads. The idea was, while a hit was less likely to be lethal at a distance, you were much more likely to hit SOMETHING. The big ball wasn't very accurate, but combined with a handful of pellets, against a line of soliders, the odds were good of hitting something.

[John in WI]

I just sent these off for ballistics testing. My normal shotgun reloading follows the recipe EXACTLY. Unfortunately, these are some oddballs. A weird wad column, a mix of shot and a slug... I just don't feel comfortable pulling the trigger until I get some numbers. I will post them as soon as the results are in. There are 2 issues, I think. A) Are they safe? Pressure is good, not too high, not too low? and B) do they work as designed--with a .50 wadcutter slug in the middle, and 8 buck pellets around it? How fast does it spread?... So, I'll post the ballistics results, then hopefully it will be spring and I can spend some time patterning and doing some hillbilly testing on phonebooks. If they came back doing like 1100-1200fps, that slug would be mean. It's exactly 0.500 point to point, and weighs almost exactly 1/2oz. A 220gr, 12.5mm wadcutter at that speed? Man, that seems like it would be a mean dude. It would be cool if this could get dialed in for 10-15 yards. Beyond that, probably wouldn't be good for anything.

[kaiser]

I used to do a fair amount of metal detecting many years ago and ran across a few "Buck and Ball" loads dumped out on what used to be a "Civil War" battlefield where solders had to make a "hasty" retreat. The balls were up to .69 or larger caliber with two .32 cal (guessing?) smaller balls placed above the ball in a smooth bore musket. I was fairly certain it was used during the 1861 to 1865 time frame because I also discovered "unit belt" buckles, .58 cal Zouave rifle bullets, and other artifacts in the same location and depth of soil. (These articles, BTW, were found in a farmer's field adjacent to a national preserve - the farmer gave permission to search.)
I've not tried the traditional buck and ball load, but have loaded buck shot loads. I'm not very impressed with buck shot for anything that requires accurate shooting. I have taken one Axis deer in Hawaii during the 70's at about 35 yards with buck shot but only one of the 9 pellets I fired met its mark on the animal's spine, otherwise I would not have made a retrieval. The current state I live in does not allow buck shot for deer hunting, but I believe it to be a very effective deterrent for most predators up close and personal! I prefer a slug over buckshot for hunting, given the choice, for range and effectiveness on game animals. My .02

[John in WI]

I loaded some plain socket slugs a while ago, but I used a really wonky process of making a paper tube sabot and all this other stuff. I tried just gluing the into regular wads, but nothing will stick well to the wad plastic (whatever mystery material they are made from). One day I got the email from Ballistics Products that they had 20ga unslit wads on sale. I thought that was the perfect solution--if you fire shot in an unslit wad, they will go forever without releasing the shot. It should work great as a wad for a slug. These 12mm socket slugs are a perfect fit. I put just a thin film of black RTV, with took up some of the space in the grooves of the slug. I can't imagine they could possibly separate upon firing. The unslit wads do not have a cushion section, but there is about 1/4" of tail from the gas seal. It should be enough of a drag tail to stabilize the slug in flight. I'm certain it won't be a high precision thing--but at 10 yards, I'm not certain it need to be. I'm thinking of trying a similar setup with some 0.570 round balls I have, although they are about 5/8 ounce. I'd either have to reduce the buck load, or maybe drill a hole through the ball to lose 1/8ounce. I've not been able to find any 1 1/8oz 20ga data. I was impressed with the commercial 12ga slug and buck loads I tried, but they are set up the other way, with the 3 pellets of buck up front and a slug underneath. I wanted the slug in front so I could roll crimp it, and know what the contents were. And also, I figured it would add to the accuracy of the slug, and maybe increase the spread of the buck. I only recently got a 20ga, and I love the fast handling and lower recoil. It's just ammo choices are much more limited compared to a 12ga. Especially in these past 2 years. My local shop has Brenneke slugs (which are great shooters), and maybe some trap loads. That's about it.