Shootout: .338 WM for deer. 225 HY SST v. 250 Sierra GK, mod. velocity

[huntinlever]

OK, hopeful it's a decent general question in a less than optimal world of scarce hunting bullets in .338 WM. Limiting the discussion of only these three bullets for ranges 100-200 yards, woods, whitetail deer. Keeping loads and velocities down on either to help forestall frangible breakup and mass loss, if possible.

So,

225 Hornady SST at 2500-2700, using IMR 4350.

v.

225 Speer BTSP, 2600-2700, using IMR 4350 or H 4350, though will also entertain I/H 4831.

v.

250 Sierra Game King at 2400-2550, using H 4831 SC.

Coming from the 45-70, I tend to like bigger, slower bullets for woods hunting. But my knowledge with jacketed bullets, especially with my new rifle, is nil. So input appreciated.

I will say I have 250 Barnes TSX's coming, and these may be candidates for an elk load in 2-3 years time. So I figured the GK's would get me started on an idea. On the other hand, if I had my druthers, I'd like something like the Hornady 225 Interlock RP-SP or Nosler Accubond in 225, so I'm also interested in pursuing some 225 grain trials using either the Speer 225 SP or these Hornady 225 SST's.

For now, though, please just limit discussion to the above scenario - deer, 100-200 yards.

Edit: Added a third. Re-subscribed to LoadData and found some data for the Speer 225 BTSP. Again I understand why this isn't ideal, but making do with lower velocities.

[NSB]

Tough to answer. There’s not much to even talk about. Either one is way more than necessary to kill a deer. About any cartridge in the boiler room will kill any deer in North America.

[huntinlever]

Tough to answer. There’s not much to even talk about. Either one is way more than necessary to kill a deer. About any cartridge in the boiler room will kill any deer in North America.

I know it's more than needed - but again this is a multi-purpose gun to handle C2-C3 game in North America, filling the gap for longer ranges beyond the hunting range of my 45-70. So, like many, using the .338 WM on deer with reasonably fitting loads, anticipating its use out west in future hunts.

[dverna]

Paul,
My analogy is using a framing hammer to build bird houses. Yes it will work, but it is not the best tool

There are many affordable and effective choices for a 200 yard deer rifle. And you will harvest a lot more deer than elk. Think about adding the “right tool”. It will be lighter, kick less, use common components, and be less expensive to use.

Not suggesting you sell the .338 WM. Excellent choice for large game.

My favorite deer rifle is a .308 T/C Compass I got for just over $200. Those deals are gone but there are still affordable entry level guns and nearly all of them shoot well.

Sorry I cannot help with selecting .338 bullets.

[M-Tecs]

Most of the deer I have taken with a 338 Win. Mag. have been with 210 grain Nosler Partitions. They were the hammer of Thor. Same for the 250 grain version.

Of the bullets on your list the 250 Sierra Game King is the only one taken deer with. I had minimal to no expansion and a hard recovery. I will not use them for deer sized game again. Exist wounds looked like the entrance wounds.

[megasupermagnum]

Paul,
My analogy is using a framing hammer to build bird houses. Yes it will work, but it is not the best tool

There are many affordable and effective choices for a 200 yard deer rifle. And you will harvest a lot more deer than elk. Think about adding the “right tool”. It will be lighter, kick less, use common components, and be less expensive to use.

Not suggesting you sell the .338 WM. Excellent choice for large game.

My favorite deer rifle is a .308 T/C Compass I got for just over $200. Those deals are gone but there are still affordable entry level guns and nearly all of them shoot well.

Sorry I cannot help with selecting .338 bullets.

I look at it slightly different. As reloaders, there is nothing stopping us from reducing loads. A 338 Win Mag isn't some super crazy powerful round. On paper it looks strong, but in reality, it's right there with anything else. I have a real hard time believing anyone could care about the difference between a 308 with 180gr bullet, and a 338 WM with 225gr bullet, if you looked at two deer shot side by side. The WM would be a tiny bit faster, but definitely ballpark. Just load that 338 WM down a little bit, you would have a sweet option that would recoil like a 308, or other common deer rounds.

You have to keep in mind a lot of the people having problems with bullets fragmenting are sending them super fast, faster than you would get in 338 WM. Something like a 150 gr bullet in a 300 WM would be an example. An SST at 3200 fps produces a huge wound, quite a bit of fragments, and a generally nasty, bloody meat. That same bullet from a 308 handgun doing maybe 2400 fps is pretty sweet. That's just kind of how old school jacketed bullets perform, and that's what you have listed. They are often called cup and core bullets. The jacket design has some effect, but it's still just a soft lead core. Other types that tend to work better at really high velocities are things like the Nosler Partition or Swift A frame. They still cause a ton of damage that can be messy to clean up. There are also bonded jacket bullets, which I have zero experience with, but they are supposed to hold together quite well. Some examples I've shot are the Nosler accubond and Federal fusion bullets.

Here's a suggestion I'm sure you've gotten more than you care to get on this site. Have you considered a cast bullets? In that modest velocity range, they tend to perform much more favorably in my opinion on game than most jacketed bullets. You've already set yourself a very modest range limit. Something like the NOE 340-225-RF at 2000 fps would be point blank plus or minus 3" to 200 yards, and still have plenty of velocity when it gets there.

[dverna]

You make a very good point MSM. But I cannot get to .308 recoil levels using book value loading data for .338

Just looked at the Hodgdon site and got this:

Full power 200 gr .308 runs around 2400 fps using about 42 gr of powder
Starting load for 200 gr .338 is in the 2600 range using about 65 gr of powder

Recoil for .308 in 8.5 lb rifle - about 18 ft-lb
Recoil for .338 in 9.5 lb rifle - about 24 ft-lb

I did not check other load data so it may be possible to reduce the .338 more than shown above. But with the above data, that is 35% more recoil in a gun weighing over 10% more and using over 50% more powder. Not to mention .308 LC cases are likely 1/3 the cost of .338 cases. Paul will be woods hunting and a lighter gun might be advantageous unless he will be hunting out of a blind.

In my case, I stopped using my older M70 Coyote (24" medium barrel and laminated stock) due to weight and now use a T/C Compass. I loved that M70 but sold it a few weeks as I realized I would never hunt with it again. The $200 Compass is just as accurate, and I don't care if I drop it in the swamp.

Like most folks, I tend to gravitate to my criteria for selecting calibers and loads. I am a recoil weanie as I have aged and am finding even full power .308 loads are more than I want to shoot for 50 rounds of group testing at a sitting especially with the lighter Compass.

In the end, Paul's choice depending on his needs, desires, and finances. Nothing 'wrong' if he stays with the .338 but there are options, which IMO are worthy of consideration.

[Ithaca Gunner]

Midway finally has .338 gas checks in stock! I've ordered a box and am now shopping for a mold, probably from Accurate Molds. As stated many times, I didn't go out looking for a .338 WM, I was shopping for an action to barrel into a .338/06. The deal on the .338 Hawkeye was just too sweet to pass up. I plan on getting a 200-250gr. flat nose mold now that Hornady has finally put some .338 gas checks into the market.

[huntinlever]

Midway finally has .338 gas checks in stock! I've ordered a box and am now shopping for a mold, probably from Accurate Molds. As stated many times, I didn't go out looking for a .338 WM, I was shopping for an action to barrel into a .338/06. The deal on the .338 Hawkeye was just too sweet to pass up. I plan on getting a 200-250gr. flat nose mold now that Hornady has finally put some .338 gas checks into the market.

I have thought about CB's for this too (thanks Mega). I really thought to exploit the performance of the weapon and so I pretty quickly let go of the notion of CB's, but now I see it's a great solution for the deer woods. Love Tom's molds (in fact, I don't need it, but in addition to my 46-405VG I may order another 46-425Q, which shot so well out of my GG and I know is good C3 medicine). Which one are you looking at, Ithaca? Also, pretty dumb reason to avoid CBs, but I presume you need to slug the barrel here, right?

I appreciate the thoughts all. Don, I do hear you. It's true that funds are finite and so I was trying to get two weapons total for my battery, at least for the foreseeable future. I'd actually gone back and forth between this .338 and a .300 WM but when I saw this Ruger up and for a good price (and even better price when they accepted my offer), seemed like it was in the cards. Guess I have to admit I just like big boomers. If I added another, 30-06, 7mm mag, or .300 WM would likely be my choice. Or .270. Or....I have no idea as I'd want several more.

But this one will have to do for now so I'm looking for a good solution for deer. As I said I enjoy bigger, slower presentations. All other things being equal, let's say 225 grains, and no straight bone (e.g., no direct shoulder) shots. Would something like the Speer BTSP at 2600 (to 2700, at most) hold together enough 100-250 yards? Same question for the 225 SST?

[megasupermagnum]

Everything you shoot in that gun will more than likely pass through whitetail, so don't worry about that. It's just a matter of how big a hole it leaves. Some people like high velocity and huge wounds, they generally drop animals on the spot. Nothing wrong with that. Others prefer to punch a small hole through for minimum damage and most penetration for questionable shot angles. Most people are in the middle.

Again, I have zero experience with 338's, but I don't think any bone or muscle is going to be an impediment to a 225gr Speer hot cor or SST.

[M-Tecs]

Some reduced load here

https://www.handloadermagazine.com/reduced-rifle-loads

https://loaddata.com/Cartridge/338-W...oil-Loads/5052

https://www.rugerforum.net/threads/r...g-load.233993/

https://hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploa...20and%20bullet.

[TurnipEaterDown]

You can always try Jacketed at starting charges for groups if you want lower recoil and less dramatic bullet expansion.
I had a load for 35 Whelen Imp & IMR4007 that shot really very well -- 1"-1.5" 5 shots @ 100 w/ heavy reticle 2 3/4 power scope, but it did ~ 400 fps less than expected.

All the major manufactures will list suggested bullet application and useful impact speed range for designed expansion characteristics, so that should help choose a bullet for purpose and performance range desired.

A nice option if one prefers non-cast for hunting, and there is a desire to operate well out of normal operating range, is Hawk Bullets.
Hawk has an online site, and the jacket thickness, exposed lead, and nose profile can all be tailored to the oddball use a person has in mind.
They work very well on game, and generally the cost recently ran ~ $0.80 per bullet (my memory, and certainly this could have gone up).
It's like having your own swaging set up at your disposal.

[Ithaca Gunner]

Paul, I opted for the 34-200B mold, but the 34-220A and 34-240B was also in the running. I chose the 34-200B mostly because I have load data in the RCBS Cast Bullet Manual for that weight, and because it's a popular mold, Tom may have one already made and ready to ship, (that's happened before to my surprise and delight!).

[huntinlever]

Some reduced load here

https://www.handloadermagazine.com/reduced-rifle-loads

https://loaddata.com/Cartridge/338-W...oil-Loads/5052

https://www.rugerforum.net/threads/r...g-load.233993/

https://hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploa...20and%20bullet.

Wanted to thank you again for the links. I'm going to try at 60% max (39.7 grains) IMR 4895 for the Speer 200 grain Hot Cor. I'll chrony it this upcoming week. Will do the same for the 225's, which with the same powder would give me 37.2 grains IMR 4895 as a starting basis. Just checking for accuracy. Confirmed with Hogdon that the 60% rule applies to either H or IMR 4895.

[megasupermagnum]

Wanted to thank you again for the links. I'm going to try at 60% max (39.7 grains) IMR 4895 for the Speer 200 grain Hot Cor. I'll chrony it this upcoming week. Will do the same for the 225's, which with the same powder would give me 37.2 grains IMR 4895 as a starting basis. Just checking for accuracy. Confirmed with Hogdon that the 60% rule applies to either H or IMR 4895.

Yes, both 4895's are good for reduced loads. I haven't looked, but Lymans Cast bullet manual often has loads listed with them below 60%, but you won't need to go that low. Another really good one for reduced loads is IMR 3031, that's my main rifle powder.

[huntinlever]

Yes, both 4895's are good for reduced loads. I haven't looked, but Lymans Cast bullet manual often has loads listed with them below 60%, but you won't need to go that low. Another really good one for reduced loads is IMR 3031, that's my main rifle powder.

Thanks, don't have my CB manual handy but will check it out. I use 3031 in my son's 30-30, so great to know as well.

[waylonrocks]

A good source of cast bullets for a variety of applications is Matt's Bullets. Very good company to deal with. They list a 210 grain gas checked bullet for the .338 for $26.50 per hundred plus shipping. I would think this bullet would be great for the velocity/distances for your needs. When I bought my Browning BBR in the 1980s I stocked up on Speer 275 grain round nose spitzers, a favorite bullet of Elmer Keith. They work well, as you would imagine. I live in grizzly country, so for me, toting a rifle that is way over-powered for deer gives some peace of mind. A properly loaded .223 is certainly adequate for deer but I would hate to encounter a bear armed with one!

[huntinlever]

A good source of cast bullets for a variety of applications is Matt's Bullets. Very good company to deal with. They list a 210 grain gas checked bullet for the .338 for $26.50 per hundred plus shipping. I would think this bullet would be great for the velocity/distances for your needs. When I bought my Browning BBR in the 1980s I stocked up on Speer 275 grain round nose spitzers, a favorite bullet of Elmer Keith. They work well, as you would imagine. I live in grizzly country, so for me, toting a rifle that is way over-powered for deer gives some peace of mind. A properly loaded .223 is certainly adequate for deer but I would hate to encounter a bear armed with one!

Thanks for the info. I was fortunate to have picked up a couple hundred 250 gr Interlock SP-RP and 100 225 Interlock SP, all at a good price via GB auction, but am still intrigued by CB. I did look through the CB book and saw the loads. So - again a dumb question, but I presume you need to slug the barrel if going to CBs here, too?

[quilbilly]

I have that 340-331 mold from NOE as well as the Lee mold. Both shoot well with 3031, RE-7, 5744, and even Red Dot at MV's of about 1750. The NOE boolit shoots well all the way down to 1450 fps. It is hard to imagine the deer (or elk) that boolit won't take nicely at a terminal velocity on target of 1200 fps. Sadly NOE is sold out on all its 340 molds at the moment. At least in my rifle, the Lee boolit doesn't stabilize below 1600 fps but at 1700 fps, it is iron sight "minute-of-5-gallon-bucket" at 700 yards in the morning when my very old eyes are fresh.

[huntinlever]

Yes, both 4895's are good for reduced loads. I haven't looked, but Lymans Cast bullet manual often has loads listed with them below 60%, but you won't need to go that low. Another really good one for reduced loads is IMR 3031, that's my main rifle powder.

Just saw from Speer No. 14 the 3031 listed at 55.0 grains starting, for 2469. Seems great. Thanks for this one too.