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Thread: H4227 delayed ignition in large case?

  1. #1
    Boolit Master HARRYMPOPE's Avatar
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    H4227 delayed ignition in large case?

    I'm in winter boredom and getting a cast load worked up for a Browning 1885 7mm Mangle-Em.
    I'm using H4227 (because I have tons of it) at 20g with a 145g GC bullet.i am having intermittent stringing so I began tipping the muzzle up last time out and it improved. Occasionally with this though the hammer slapping the pin is definitely *before* the boom.And then goes a 3" high shot!!!
    I don't like this.The 4227 teases me with near moa groups but it's time to go back to 5744.
    anyone else run into delay fire with 4227 in large cases?

    I use this same powder all the time in 32-40,38-55 and 33-47( roughly 13-15g) with not an issue. I understand the capacity is more in the big magnum case but this seemed odd to me.
    Last edited by HARRYMPOPE; 02-26-2023 at 07:33 PM.
    Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelt of elderberries

  2. #2
    Boolit Master


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    I think you are describing a hang fire. I would dismantle any remaining cartridges and increase your charge or try something different. Unique or Red Dot may be your friend.
    Good Luck,
    Rick

  3. #3
    Boolit Master HARRYMPOPE's Avatar
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    It's a *little* faster than a hang fire that's why I didn't call it a hangfire but there's definitely a delay. I have played with Unique and red dot in my 375 magnum before and I thought about going back to that as well.The 416 Rigby does great with 5744 and 4759 and thats why I'll add it to the mix as well.
    Last edited by HARRYMPOPE; 02-26-2023 at 10:18 PM.
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    As a comparison 4227 really shines in the 17 Hornet. The difference in case capacity might be a clue.
    [The Montana Gianni] Front sight and squeeze

  5. #5
    Boolit Master HARRYMPOPE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MT Gianni View Post
    As a comparison 4227 really shines in the 17 Hornet. The difference in case capacity might be a clue.
    as it does in my 32 WCF and 25-20 single shot. as I said I've not had it hard to ignite with light charges in 30-30 sized cases breech seating in schuetzen rifles.I had luck with it in a 308 Norma years back with no such issues.Powders in the 4227 speed range work great typically reduced loads in bigger capacity cases.
    this might just not be one of them.
    Last edited by HARRYMPOPE; 02-26-2023 at 11:50 PM.
    Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelt of elderberries

  6. #6
    Boolit Master

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    I had a problem sort of like what you are having
    I added a bit of poly fluff on top of the powder
    I then filled the case with the fine ground corn cob
    I added enough to slightly compress the powder when the bullet was seated
    So the fluff was also compressed 100%

    But I was loading 45/70 , a case with no shoulder
    I feel a filler might cause you BIG problems with pressure and pushing on the shoulder
    So IMO not a good idea
    I am feeling a different powder with more bulk might be your best bet

    John
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  7. #7
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    Sounds like an application for a fiber filler like kapok or poly. Some have recommended a loose ball of toilet paper. Leave out the cornmeal.
    Cognitive Dissident

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by HARRYMPOPE View Post
    as it does in my 32 WCF and 25-20 single shot. as I said I've not had it hard to ignite with light charges in 30-30 sized cases breech seating in schuetzen rifles.I had luck with it in a 308 Norma years back with no such issues.Powders in the 4227 speed range work great typically reduced loads in bigger capacity cases.
    this might just not be one of them.
    What looads are you using in your 25-20 SS

  9. #9
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
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    It is a hang fire. Mag primer, dacron, higher charge will get the powder to ignite better. All ball powders have that problem.
    Whatever!

  10. #10
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    I used about 8. to 8.5 grains in my .25-21. Never got the accuracy or the velocity SDs that AA#9 provided. Bullet was the canonical 85 grain Loverin roundnose, fixed ammo. Didn't even try it in the .25-20. Don't use it anywhere else, either.
    Cognitive Dissident

  11. #11
    Boolit Grand Master uscra112's Avatar
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    4227 isn't a ball powder, is it?
    Cognitive Dissident

  12. #12
    Boolit Bub Snakeoil's Avatar
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    I ran your 7mag load thru GRT. This is what it spit out and I think it pretty much answers your question as to what is going on.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	GRT 7mag.jpg 
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    Regards,
    Rob

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by uscra112 View Post
    4227 isn't a ball powder, is it?
    Neither the H nor the IMR in my gun room is...

  14. #14
    Boolit Master TurnipEaterDown's Avatar
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    According to something I read recently on ignition from Alan Jones, former Speer Balistician: All powders show position sensitivity to some degree in regard to ignition sensitivity.

    This is why many times best accuracy loads are found at 100% fill (or near), why some odd powders were developed (Bulky ones for low density loads, like 5744, PB, Trailboss, etc.), why tipping a gun muzzle up w/ low charge volumes will help, and why fillers can be used to improve things like ignition & accuracy. This is also why "fast" Non Ball powders are often used in light cast loads: the fast things (in comparison to rifle powders) like 2400, bullseye, 700X, 4227, all ignite much better (lower energy input) than those slower powders normally used to fill a bottleneck rifle cartridge.

    Primer energy can also be used to displace powder in a case rather that just be used to ignite a powder. Mush better chance of getting consistent ignition if the powder is against the primer flash hole.

    Had an entertaining couple days recently w/ a friend while shooting, using S&B Large primers (bought round about a decade ago) and the 8x57 using 196 gr cast bullets and a surplus Russian flake powder that acts like 3031. Gun tipped up before shot: 100% consistent trigger release and immediate bang, gun held level and tapped repeatedly to get powder presumably laying flat in case before shot gave a crap shoot maybe 60% of time a noticeable short click (striker fall) then bang, gun pointed muzzle down steeply before shot and gently placed level on bags gave ~100% noticeable click bang (even to next shooter over w/ amplifying muffs on).
    Same load, WLR, never mattered, up, down, flat, all bang w/o delay. (Edited, forgot to add this statement first time around.)
    I told him to take those S&B large primers and use in a 44 Rem Mag he has -- S&B has the same primer height spec LR & LP. No more issues. All bang, no delay. Easy fix.

    Larry Gibson wrote something and posted on here about proper use of fillers. I think someone added this on a compilation a few weeks ago.
    I don't know much about fillers, but seems he knows a lot.
    Last edited by TurnipEaterDown; 02-27-2023 at 01:42 PM.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master super6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by racepres View Post
    Neither the H nor the IMR in my gun room is...
    I just checked my IMR 4227 and at first look it appears to be ball, Under a bit of magnification It is what looks to be small extruded powder, Thick as long.
    Give me something to believe in. Poison
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  16. #16
    Boolit Master TurnipEaterDown's Avatar
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    4227 is extruded. Both flavors, I & H.

  17. #17
    Boolit Bub Snakeoil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TurnipEaterDown View Post
    According to something I read recently on ignition from Alan Jones, former Speer Balistician: All powders show position sensitivity to some degree in regard to ignition sensitivity.
    We had guys at the club who did not believe this. Many of us shoot 2400 and it shows it for sure. Had a shooter wondering where his flyers were coming from. I told him to tap his cases before he loaded them and to close the action slowly and smoothly. He doubted me. So, we had time as the relay was still being fired. Told him to do what I said and fire the round at the target. He did. I then had him tap the case upside down, load and fire it with the same point of aim. Flyer. The man got religion.
    Regards,
    Rob

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    as a matter of habit i always use magnum primers with 4227 never had any ignition problem

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
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    I like 4227 as a magnum pistol powder, because it has a broader work-up margin (10%) than H110, gives velocities that are nearly as high, and can even be ignited uniformly with non-magnum primers (with a little work). It is NOT a propellant of choice for developing low-performance loads in large-capacity belted magnum cases. The only propellant in the same class that might work, of which I'M aware is Alliant 2400. There may be others, but I am not acquainted with them.
    16.0-19.0/RedDot/145 gr. will likely give you desired performance & accuracy, far more acceptable ignition characteristics and considerably less risk of ringing or "kabooming" your lovely Browning M1885. If you do not have Red Dot but do have other propellants (IMR-700X, PB, SR-7625, SR-4756, Alliant Green Dot), please PM me, and I will relay data for these to you.
    For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. Ecclesiastes 1:18
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  20. #20
    Boolit Master HARRYMPOPE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snakeoil View Post
    I ran your 7mag load thru GRT. This is what it spit out and I think it pretty much answers your question as to what is going on.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	GRT 7mag.jpg 
Views:	69 
Size:	51.9 KB 
ID:	311050
    The picture is reduced so much I can't read any of the data ,what am I supposed to see?
    Last edited by HARRYMPOPE; 02-27-2023 at 07:01 PM.
    Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelt of elderberries

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check