1898 Krag Help

[Powderhorn1955]

I feel like the new guy here. I believe I have been registered since 2016 and this is my first post. I come here quite often for info. Most of my shooting for quite some time has been done with side lock muzzleloaders. My casting is simply 54 & 58 cal. roundballs. I do have some 58 cal. bullet molds that I have never tried. No need for the heavy bullets as either size ball is plenty for white-tailed deer.
I have a 30-40 Krag manufactured in 1902 that I inherited when my dad passed in 2002. It is the rifle carried by my grandfather in WW1. As long as I can remember, when cleaning our other guns, the Krag always got a few patches with solvent down the bore to remove old oil, then dried and a light coat of new oil. All exterior metal was lightly oiled and a coat wax was applied to the stock. I have continued to do the same. This seemed like fair maintenance since the gun has not been fired in the 67 years that I have been on earth. The gun appears to be in very good condition for its 100+ years. Only small dings in the stock and no cracks. The metal has a nice patina and everything functions. The bolt is very smooth as is typical of these guns. The recessed area that encircles the cartridge rim is unbroken and the trigger has nice pull.
I recently purchased a bore scope mainly for use with my muzzleloaders and of coarse it would be handy for all of our guns. I had the Krag out doing its normal cleaning and thought I would have a really good look at the bore. My first look appears to be erosion and lots of pitting. My heart sank. After I got the focus adjusted it became apparent that what I was seeing was higher than the lands. It is apparently lead or copper buildup. I am hoping that this is the lesser of the 2 evils as it should be able to be removed. My understanding is that the military ammo was jacketed which should be yellow. This appears to be lead and in areas looks like solder splatter. If the military ammo was jacketed, God only knows what may have been fired through this gun at some point in time after the war. With the scope you can also see where the grooves are completely filled in. At the muzzle I can see the tops of the lands. I measured the minor diameter of the bore and it is at .3007 fairly consistently with a small hole gage and mic as deeply as I could measure which was not very. Maybe 4".
I realize that a bore scope can make a speck of dust look like Mt. Everest. I have looked at new barrels and you can see every scratch and tool mark. You have to learn to interpret what you are seeing. In the case of my Krag it has shown me what I hoped not to see but needed to know. Please keep in mind that I do not believe this is due to recent neglect. We had no endoscopes or bore scopes when this rifle came into either mine or my dads care. There is no bore light that could ever show the detail in this barrel. Do I believe everyone needs a bore scope. Not unless you want one. I did fine with the "keep going til the patch comes out clean" method for years. My purchase was to watch my muzzleloaders for erosion around the touch holes on my flintlocks and rust as these things are cleaned with water. It happened to come in handy for the Krag.
Now for the questions. I came here for your help.
What solvent would you guys recommend to remove this buildup? No ammonia please. Safe stuff only. I don't care how much scrubbing I have to do or how long it needs to soak. Is it true that Kroil works well for this? Are the nickel plated bore brushes safe for the steel of older rifle barrels?
I am interested in any tips or suggestions that anyone has. I may never fire this gun no matter the outcome but it is important to me to make an effort to make her as good as I can.
I apologize for being so long winded. This is what happens when you join a group and wait 7 years to make your first post.
Thanks in advance to all who care to respond.
Take care,
Ed

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Wow! One post in 7 years? You are what they call "a man of few words." Well, until this post, anyway! Welcome to the Forum.

There's so much in your post I doubt if I can answer it all. First, I kind of doubt if your Grandfather carried the rag in WW I as the official rifle was the M1903 Springfield, and the M1917 Enfield was also issued in quantity. The Krags that remained in inventory from the SpanAm War were issued Stateside for training and guard duty, so perhaps it was used in that capacity.

In the condition you describe your specimen, at today's prices it might fetch about $2,000. Every year they get scarcer, and they aren't making any more!

Krags are among the best cast bullet shooters. The condition of your rifle's bore may not be as bad as you are thinking. After all, an occasional oiling plus the dust of the many years might be most of the build up that you are seeing. However, back many years ago bullet jackets, especially military ammo, sometimes had cupro-nickel jackets rather than copper which left a silver colored deposit and might be mistake for lead upon first inspection. I did read your post thoroughly, and do understand that you do not wish to use an ammonia based cleaner, but that is one of the best solutions for removing nickel deposits. You can use it carefully-- put it in a bench vise or one of the plastic rifle vises upside down. Remove the bolt and clean from the breech end with the muzzle downward at about a 45 degree angle so anything that drips out will go onto the bench or floor and won't soak into the stock. Pay close attention and follow the instructions, cleaning out the solvent periodically. I've used Sweet's 7.62 solvent on many occasions without any complaint and good results. Yes, Kroil is a great product also, but not as aggressive. I'm not familiar with nickel plated bore brushes, but the brass brushes work fine for me. Yes, something like Sweets will work on them also just like the jacket deposits in the bore, but you can rinse them between uses. There are also stiff nylon bore brushes available, and even stainless steel brushes. The SS brushes are pretty aggressive and you don't want to over use them, but after a serious application of bore cleaner that is allowed to soak for awhile, a few passes once or twice will really amaze you at the crud they will dislodge. Again, just a few passes once or twice during the initial cleaning-- don't use them routinely.

Don't say maybe you'll never fire the gun! That's what they're for. Shooting cast bullets you'll never wear it out. Lee makes a good inexpensive mold, use gas checks, and 4895 powder.

I like Krags. Here's about half of my accumulation.



DG

[uscra112]

Well, that about covers it. I'll add that every old military rifle that has ever come my way was heavily copper fouled. I've used Sweets, and also good old Hoppes. Wet patch thru the bore, leave to stand for 12 hours. Dry patch out, look for the green residue. Keep doing that. Some of mine have taken two weeks of twice-a-day treatment before the green is gone. Patience, patience.

That said, you may find pitting under all that fouling after all. Not to despair. Almost all of us have had a gun with an ugly bore that shoots cast just fine. Slug your barrel, use a cast bullet that fits the throat (not the grooves).

Krags like a bullet with a long bore-riding nose, and that nose has to be big enough that it fits the lands snugly. A loose nose lets the bullet slump off-axis, and accuracy disappears.

I'm not as much of a Krag fanatic as some, but the few that i have would be among the last to go if I ever had to sell out.

[elk hunter]

The old cupronickel jacketed bullets were notorious for fouling bores. I've had very good results using "Gunslick Foaming Bore Cleaner" to remove the deposits from old military rifle barrels.

[Rich/WIS]

Have had good results getting copper out with Shooter Choice, suspect any of the brand name copper solvents will work. In the old days of cupro-nickel fouling have seen reference to something called ammonia dope used to get the fouling out, but it was tricky to use and if done improperly would damage the bore. Not sure if copper solvents will remove nickel but an alternative might be the cleaning systems that use electrolysis to remove copper and probably nickel. Never have used this method or seen it done so you might need to google it.

Edit: My bad, checked the bottle and it is Marksman's Choice.

[uscra112]

Going back to my reading in my collection of 1920s American Rifleman, it's true that the military rifle teams used a very aggressive ammonia dope. The fouling of the cupro-nickel jackets was so bad that the armorers had to do a months' worth of normal copper removal overnight, to keep the teams shooting the following day. We don't have such a time constraint here.

[waksupi]

May I ask, why no ammonia? The standard for bench rest shooters for years used to be Blue Goop, which is full strength ammonia, that has had a piece of copper soaked in it until the solution turns blue. I don't recall the "WHY" of pre-loading the ammonia with copper, as that is what we want to remove, but it works! I still have a half gallon of it in my shop. Ammonia is probably safer than any other base you will find in other solutions.

[uscra112]

Ammonia is notoriously hard on steel, which I've proven to my satisfaction by being too sanguine about leaving Barnes CR-10 in a barrel overnight. (They tell you 15 minutes max.) Metal had a grey, etched appearance next day.

[Gtek]

SS brushes are for last hopes, you may have a really descent bore under there. It has sat this long, patience is your friend! I would run a few DRIPPING wet patches with Kroil and let sit muzzle down for a week or so and then patch dry. Use whatever harsh chemical the Gods steer you to, but I would not leave in bore and then see what your looking at. There may be that nice bore under there, sneak up on it.

[Rich/WIS]

The original Hoppe's No 9 contains ammonia and there are warnings not to soak nickel plated guns with it. If it could damage/remove nickel plating probably would remove it from the bore.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

SNIP>>>

"This seemed like fair maintenance since the gun has not been fired in the 67 years that I have been on earth"

"I may never fire this gun no matter the outcome"

Ed,
Welcome to the forum.

Myself, I wouldn't attempt to remove the barrel fouling if you are never gonna shoot it.
It's easy to do more damage to a barrel trying to remove heavy fouling, if you aren't aware of the pitfalls of the cleaning rod.

[missionary5155]

Greetings to ya Ed !
Every Krag should be shot with some cast slugs. Will do the bore alot of good and put a big smile on your face.
You might want to have an annual "Krag Shoot" for the family with a yearly bragging rights trophy.

[rmcc]

I have 3 Krags with varying degrees of barrel wear. As stated above, PATIENCE, is your best friend. I have had best luck with Kroil and Gunslick foaming bore cleaner. The new kid on the block is a product called WIPE OUT. Very similar results as with Gunslick. With Wipe Out, keep it up until no more blue comes out on your patches. You will be surprised!! On another note, Krags were made to shoot!! Even though the sights were regulated for a 220 grain cupronickle bullet at 2000 fps, you can get amazing results with cast! Always use a gas check. Mine like Lyman 311467. If you want to use the issue sights, Hornady 220 RN over 40 grs of IMR 4350 duplicates the original service load. Remember that the sights are regulated to zero at around 325 yds so you will be about a foot high at 100yds. That can be fixed by installing a taller front sight and file to zero. They are slick actioned, great shooting old rifles!! You have a treasure!

rmcc

[Powderhorn1955]

To all of you who responded to this thread, a huge thankyou! There is some great information here and it is much appreciated. Besides, I need another post. Just a warning. It may be another long one as you guys have covered a lot of ground. So I'd advise you to bail now or get your . The Mods are going to take away my ink.
The identification of the buildup is huge for me. Looking through the bore scope the only thing I could think of was lead but yet I had read that the military used jacketed bullets. I had never heard of cupro-nickel and would have not had a clue as to how to remove it. I can tell you that I have ran Hoppes on a patch down this thing to clean out old oil and never got a hint of color. It is certainly going to take some serious soaking. The plan right now is to start with the mildest stuff, likely Kroil and Hoppes, and get more aggressive only if necessary. I have nothing but time and am long on patience and have a good supply of 30 cal. patches and brushes. I am curious about the Gunslick and Wipe Out. Are these mild solvents?
JonB, yes I have thought about just wiping it down and putting it back in the safe. My first thought was if it was worth the risk of damage with no plans of shooting it. I have never dealt with a bore anywhere near this bad. All of my firearms are very well maintained. As long as I knew that the Krag was sitting in the safe like this it would be like having a rock in your shoe. It would bother me every time I thought about it. I believe I know what you mean by damage from the rod. I do a lot of side lock muzzleloader shooting and have seen a number of barrels ruined by not using muzzle protectors when loading or cleaning. I use them on any rod going down the bore. Even wood, although it is much softer than the barrel, will accumulate crud that is very abrasive. If I take on the Krag barrel I will be cleaning from the breech using a bore protector and a very good and clean rod. Thanks for mentioning this as I had the same thought. If I have missed something please say so. The last thing I want to do is damage this thing. I am open to all suggestions. My idea of never shooting the Krag is kind of fading as I seem to be getting some encouragement here. I believe some of that came from no knowledge of loading ammo for it but I see that there is no lack of that here. I think if I play real nice I could get some help. Before I get too hyped up I need to see what is under the crud.
DG, that is a very nice collection of Krags and I understand that is only part of it. To all of you guys that have multiples, I am jealous.
I can remember when I was a kid you could find these in hardware stores selling for $25. I wish I would have known then what I have learned now. Funny, at the time I thought they were the ugliest gun with that box on the side. Now I see a whole lot of beauty in these old girls.
rmcc, if this gun is ever fired it would have to be something that works with the unaltered sights and I thankyou for the info. Thus far the Krag is unmolested. I think the only reason that is important to me is where it came from. It was my Grandfathers and I had a brother in law that was just chomping at the bit to sporterize it.
I understand that a lot of this was done. If I had purchased it from someone I may not care but this one I would like to pass along original. I see you are in Iowa. My home state. I grew up in Sioux City. You are on the good side of the river.
I mentioned in the post above that this rifle was used by my Grandfather overseas in WW1. He left for France with an Army Engineers unit in 1917. This is the story that was told within my family as to the origin of this gun. It is true that M1903 and M1917 were the current military rifles of that time but articles I have found say that we did not have enough of them. The units less likely to see direct combat such as the engineers were issued Krags along with large numbers being issued to the Navy to be carried aboard ships. Enough that a contract had to be issued for the production of 25 million rounds of ammunition for the Navy. Awhile back I found a youtube entitled Small Arms of WW1 primer 063: U.S. Krag Jorgensen By C&Rsenal. I wish I could just post a link but I am not sure that it is legal here. You guys are obviously into Krags. It is interesting and runs 1hr and 46 min. If you haven't seen it I think you would enjoy it.
Anyway, thanks to all. I hope to get soaking this week. I want to get before and after pictures of the bore. I am more than a little nervous about what I will find. If it turns out good or bad I will try to post pics.
Take care,
Ed

[ulav8r]

A good reason to clean is that corrosion can occur under the fouling. Oiling the fouling will do little to stop that corrosion.

[waksupi]

Ammonia is notoriously hard on steel, which I've proven to my satisfaction by being too sanguine about leaving Barnes CR-10 in a barrel overnight. (They tell you 15 minutes max.) Metal had a grey, etched appearance next day.

Yep, you don't leave it in the bore for very long.

[Rusty Goose]

When I brought my Bubba'd Krag back to life, its bore was like you describe. I went the reverse electrolysis route. I have a Caswell electroplating kit for nuts and bolts, I used part of that to get started. I bought a small rubber cork for the end of the muzzle. I drilled a small hole in the center of the small end of the plug. I inserted a 1/16" steel welding rod (from oxyacetylene kit) into the plug and wrapped tiny strips of electrical tape at a couple points along the wire. Now with it inserted into the barrel firmly, it would hold liquid and the wire did not make any contact with the barrel (no continuity). I dribble some of the electroplating solution into the barrel and hooked the two "d" sized battery pack in reverse, -one wire to the rod, +one to the receiver. This way the metal built up in the bore transferred to the wire rod. I checked in 10 minute intervals, probably took 30 min total. The wire had a lot of crap on it. The bore no longer looked like potatoes were growing in it. While it is not mirror perfect, it is very clean now with distinct rifling. My bore is actually .310 after slugging with a round lead pellet. .311 gas checked cast bullets work very well for me.

Rusty

[Powderhorn1955]

Thanks Rusty. I have seen this mentioned somewhere, possibly on this forum, but I can't say that I fully understand. Not having the electroplating devise, what else could be used as a power supply? How far up the bore does the rod need to extend? What purpose does the electrical tape serve? Simply to insulate the rod from the inside of the barrel? Can't see the rod at this point but lack of continuity could be checked with an ohm meter. Any substitute for the liquid or is electroplating solution the norm? How deep does the liquid have to be in the bore? If this would even remove the biggest share of the junk it could mean a lot less patching and brushing.
Thanks,
Ed

[ulav8r]

http://www.zoneballistic.com/colinsb...recleaner.html

http://www.zoneballistic.com/colinsb...recleaner.html

These were some of the sites I located with a duckduckgo search for "electrolytic bore cleaning". Looking through my saved information I found the following, don't remember where I found it but it was dated Jan. of 2018.

Electronic Fouling Removal
A Caveat
The Outers FoulOut operates at a very low voltage (.3 V - three-tenths) at the cleaning electrode. Higher voltages can start to etch the bore, and even at the lower voltage the Outers can do so if there is rust in the bore. While the simple designs given here can be used safely there exists the possibility of bore etching due to their higher voltages. This is a particular concern if you use the Outers solutions. The electrical problem with all the home-brew series current limited (by the short indicating lamp) devices is that they apply voltages that will start taking iron into the solution, according to the FoulOut patent information which has expired. This aspect of the circuitry deceives those without electrical backgrounds. They look at the batteries or the wall adapter voltage used to operate a FoulOut and assume it must be safe to apply that much voltage between the barrel and the rod. Not so. The voltage regulation schemes inside a FoulOut are designed to hold a 0.3V limit regardless of how many volts the power supply has.
Most shooters are familiar with the Outers FoulOut ™ electronic copper fouling remover that will remove unbelievable amounts of crud form a "clean" barrel. It is quite easy to build your own simple version of this handy device.
A Current and Voltage Limited Homemade Electronic Copper Fouling Remover
While this design is a little work to build it provides current and voltage limitation to prevent etching. You can download the article which is a 340K PDF document, by clicking here. This unit is designed to use the Outer's solutions or their homemade equivalents below.
It is best to remove the barreled action from the stock for cleaning. For best results clean and then degrease the bore with a commercial "gun scrubber" or automotive brake cleaner. Plug the chamber with the rubber stopper and carefully insert the rod down the bore and insure it is seated in the hole in the stopper. Using a dropper or a syringe fill the bore with the cleaning solution and the attach the black wire to the rod and red wire to the gun. If the gun is dirty the flashlight will glow but not at full power. If the flashlight immediately glows full power the rod is not centered in the bore and has caused a short. Allow the unit to work for 45 min or so, disconnect the leads and carefully pull the rod out of the bore. The accumulated copper fouling can be removed from the rod with fine steel wool. Drain the barrel, remove the stopper and dry the bore and chamber. Run a couple of patches with bore cleaner on them through the bore and chamber to prevent any after rust and you're done. Those of you with a background in metal plating may want to contribute your own solution recipes. Send them to me by clicking here.
36" long TIG welding rod in stainless steel are available from local welding shop. Get 3/32" and 1/8" diameters at a cost of about $1.25 each. Ideally you want a rod about 1/2 to 2/3 of the bore diameter.
Thanks to Robert Schaedel, et. al. for this tip.
Some Interesting Information.
Just for those of you with curious minds, the Outers CopOut Plus solution contain approximately 0.6 percent cupric acetate and 2.5 percent ammonium acetate (3.62 grams/ liter of copper acetate and 38.5 grams/liter of ammonium acetate) in distilled/deionized water. The LeadOut Plus contains approximately 2 percent lead acetate and 5 percent ammonium acetate (6.50 grams/liter of lead acetate and 38.5 grams/liter of ammonium acetate ) in distilled/deionized water. A good basic solution for either would beCopper Solution
562.3 grains Ammonium Acetate
51.3 grains Copper Acetate or 58.3 grains Cupric Acetate Monohydrate
Add distilled (or high megohm deionized) water to make 1 Qt.
Lead Solution
562.3 grains Ammonium Acetate
95.0 grains Lead Acetate or 110.8 grains of Lead Acetate Trihydrate
Add distilled (or high megohm deionized) water to make 1 Qt.
Note that since the Outers FoulOut unit limits the voltage and current in the electrolysis process and runs at about .3 volts (3/10 volt)-- at typically a max of about 20 milliamps.
Possible sources for these chemicals in small quantities are:
Post Apple Scientific, Inc. http://www.postapplescientific.com
Sigma-Aldrich (800-325-3010) http://www.sigmaaldrich.com
This company lists 100 grams of Copper (II) Acetate for about $19 and 500 grams of Ammonium Acetate for about $17. If you assume $1.00 per gallon for distilled water, you can make the solution for copper removal for $1.60 per quart. This does not include shipping costs on the chemicals.
The Science Company http://www.sciencecompany.com
The following is from Outer's Q&A page.
Q. Why has the solution become discolored during use?
A. You need to check the solution about every 30 minutes to see if it has changed color. Pour all the chemical into a clear container to see if there may be a color change. Sometimes there may be sediment or a color change but it isn't apparent by simply looking at the chemical in the barrel.
If chemical is orange or orange/brown you may have some rust. If chemical is black you may be lifting iron from the barrel or its oxidized copper salts. It could also be some powder fouling being removed from the barrel. The unit may have been on too long without checking the solution color often enough.
Black/Gunky chemical could mean that in the first 30 minutes you hit a lot of lead and lead started to settle set the bottom of the barrel as well as on the rod. It could also mean the unit was left unchecked too long and rust has formed.
Green colored chemical could mean that you may be pulling out iron, blueing or rust. Sometimes new barrels will have blueing and its removing that.
Q. What do I do if the chemical changes color?
A. Dispose of the chemicals according to local and state laws. Clean the barrel using regular gun cleaning methods. Degrease the barrel and rod with Outers Crud Cutter. If you can't find Crud Cutter, you can use Birchwood Casey Gun Scrubber or household rubbing alcohol. On a scale of 1 to 10, alcohol rates as a 2 and Crud Cutter rates as a 10. After cleaning and degreasing the barrel and rod, start the Foul Out III according to the instruction book. [Automotive brake cleaner is the same as the Birchwood or Outers products and cheaper. - Fr. Frog]
Q. The unit isn't cleaning fast enough.
A. To speed up the process, after cleaning for two hours, change the solution and you should obtain faster results.
Q. Can I Use Cop Out Plus and Lead Out Plus with my Foul Out II Unit?
A. Yes, You can use the Cop Out Plus and Lead Out Plus with Foul Out I and Foul Out II units. Because these are more potent chemicals than regular Cop Out and Lead Out, the customer needs to be more cautious and check the chemical for changes more often. The new chemicals will clean faster than the old.



P.S. There was a link above that will not open from the text I pasted, but from the document I copied it would open a pdg that has the schematics for building a power supply. It was more complicated than the batteries or wall wart shown in the first two links above.

[charlie b]

First, protect your action and stock. Get a bore guide to slide in the action. Any of the generic ones are fine. Also makes handling patches easier. Put a rag over the stock in case you drip some solvent. Make sure to wipe out chamber when done.

Getting copper out is easy these days. I use two products. Neither use ammonia but they do have other not so nice chemicals. No matter what you use it is probably best to use gloves when working with them, and an open, ventilated space. CAUTION: Do not mix these. After using one product wipe the barrel with alcohol soaked patches before you use another.

KG-12 works the fastest for me on copper. You can watch copper dissolve with it. Wipe, let sit for a minute or two. Check bore. Wipe again. Usually takes 30min or so if the fouling is bad. The only problem is the patches do not change color so you have to look at the bore to see if it is 'done'.

ProShot Copper Solvent. Works almost as fast as KG-12 but the patches do turn blue if there is copper remaining. Again, if it takes more than an hour something is wrong. It also is a decent powder fouling solvent.

Do not leave either of these to soak in the barrel. Follow instructions. I use bore swabs, nylon brushes and nickel jags.

For powder fouling I use Ed's Red (equal parts turpentine, Dextron III, kerosene and acetone).