Real, genuine, unadulterated stupidity...!

[Der Gebirgsjager]

About 2 weeks ago I purchased what I consider to be about a 95% condition Llama 9mm/38 Model VII on Gunbroker.com as an addition to my collection. The pistol was probably manufactured around 1950, but perhaps as early as 1944.


Click to enlarge.

The seller, an FFL Dealer with a storefront operation in Texas, stated in the descriptive information that models made in 9mm/38 were for a different cartridge than .38 Super Auto, although some owners use the .38 Super. He then made the comment, "I guess we're going to find out if it's safe or not." At the time (pre-purchase) I assumed that he thought the new owner might try it. Odd, I thought, that he did not say, "Do not do it!"

Well, yesterday I decided to field strip the pistol and give it a good cleaning and inspection. I noted that the barrel was reluctant to unlock from the slide, and it took several jerks to get it off the front of the frame. Next, I removed the barrel and link from the slide, and the link fell out onto my desk in two pieces. Long past the time in which a return might be accepted.



I'm sure that I'll be able to repair it using a link for a 1911, as the size is very similar. Any radius difference can probably be solved using a Dremel and rotary stone, and the thickness can be adjusted with a flat needle file. Unfortunately, Llama is now about 20 years out of business.

You can draw your own conclusions, but I have to think that the Dealer did, in fact, "try it out", and that one or two shots was enough to break the link. Over the years there have been several threads on this Forum discussing whether or not .38 Super should be fired in Spanish-made guns (Astra, Star, Llama), and there have always been those who said that they do it successfully. The .38 referred to in the caliber marking on the slides of these pistols is .38 ACP, the forerunner and weaker version of the .38 Super, and the 9mm is 9mm Largo, approximately the equivalent of the .38 ACP and the preferred round. The link can be replaced, but not a cracked frame. This is written in the interest of preserving firearms from damage and you from injury.


DG

[stubshaft]

I've bought more than a few guns from GB, and have had only 1 bad experience with a misrepresented shotgun.

[Snakeoil]

Shame on you for not stripping it immediately upon arrival. That said, the area where the link broke looks pretty thin to me. No personal experience with Llama handguns other than drooling over the .22 version when I was a kid.

Since the .38 ACP and Super have the same external case dimensions, I'd just load ACP loads in Super cases and enjoy the pistol. I think the real risk of shooting a Super round in an ACP barrel is more than a broken link or a cracked frame. I saw a guy blow the mag out of a .38 Super 1911 due to shoddy reloading practices (a little more powder is better, right??). Only thing that saved his hand was the metal liner in the Pachmayr grips. Never saw him at the club again after that day. Nobody missed him. We all knew it was just a matter of time.

[dverna]

I would still contact the seller and see what they think is fair.

It sucks but at least you did not get hurt.

[elmacgyver0]

I bought a "Gunsmith Special" 9mm Llama a while back, I think it was from J&G sales if my memory is correct.
It was without a magazine.
I was kind of surprised as it was blow back, no locking lugs.
The spring for the loaded cartridge indicator was in sideways, best way I can describe it.
Easy fix.
Magazines, they are made of unobtainium. If you can find them, very expensive.
I bought a set of four stainless steel 9mm 1911 mags from some outfit I can't remember the name, something like "Magazine Guy".
They fit very loosely front to back in the well.
The gun jammed up something terrible, about every shot.
I cut a strip of "Alien Tape" the width of the magazine well and a piece of aluminum flashing the same width the length of the magazine well.
I used the "Alien Tape" to fasten the flashing to the rear of the magazine well.
The result? The Gun functions perfectly!
I paid $250 for the "gunsmith special" and $87 for the set of 4 stainless magazines.
Not too shabby of a price for a 9mm 1911 in my humble opinion.
It is a lot of fun to shoot.

[elmacgyver0]

If you can get this stuff for a price you like and you are good at fixing things, you can come out all right.
I think I did alright on mine, some of you may think I got ripped off.
As they say, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
I jumped on the Llama because I already had a mini 1911 in .22 LR, mini 1911 in .32 acp and a mini 1911 in .380 acp.
How could I not get the 9mm 1911.
The funny thing is the mini 1911 in .380 acp has locking lugs.
The 9mm since it is a full sized 1911 has enough slide weight as not to need them.

[elmacgyver0]

One other thing.
Everybody and their dog are producing Mini 1911s.
Llama did it many years ago before anybody even thought about it.
Go figure.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Thanks, all, for the interesting comments. I've acquired Spanish handguns for years (the big 3...not just any) and have found them to be excellent pistols within their class. A Llama is not a Colt, but I'd say is about 90% of one. They certainly are not junk, as some have said, putting them under the blanket of "cheap Spanish handguns" made early in the last century by the less well known makers. I do reload 9mm Largo, and have a nice supply of Starline brass which I got when the gettin' was good. If I didn't, downloading the .38 Super would be the way to go. I do have one Llama dating from about 1967 or '68 chambered specifically for the Super cartridge.

Near the end of WW II Llama decided to revamp their product line, and the 1911 seemed to be the wave of the future. Star had already started making 1911-based pistols and was doing quite well. I've enjoyed seeing how the Iberian pride insisted on producing an initial model that looked very much like a 1911 but internally had different sear/hammer/safety mechanisms, no grip safety and a different arrangement for the slide stop and thumb safety tension. As the years went by they modified all of these differences to imitate the Colt, and their last 1911-type pistols, the Max-1 (etc.) series had progressed to using mostly interchangeable parts. All a testimony to the greatness of the 1911 design by a competitor. Collecting and examining (and shooting) the progression of Llama models has been a good experience.

DG

[Texas by God]

Aw man, dang it. That sorry seller.
I know that you’ll get it going. I have never owned a Llama but I’ve shot the .380 version and the .45 version that had a rib on top and a loaded indicator that imposed on the sight picture a bit. They worked fine and shot well.
I have had several Astra and Star pistols- and they are excellent.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HumptyDumpty]

I was happy to clear a gun shop's shelf of some 9mm Largo a couple of years back (perhaps three or four boxes, at a blowout price), but the owner didn't understand why I wasn't interested in the other couple boxes from Winchester. It was also 9x23, after all

[MrWolf]

I would still contact the seller and see what they think is fair.

It sucks but at least you did not get hurt.

Based on my experience, Gunbroker will back the seller and will probably be a waste of time. DG will fix her with a whole lot less hassle.

[Bigslug]

Not long ago, Bloke on the Range did a video challenging the premise that the Lee Enfield is a "weak" action, by threading a .300 Win Mag barrel onto a No. 4 receiver and ultimately progressing to the point of lubing the brass to increase bolt thrust. At the point of eventual failure, it was discovered that the rifle had a pre-existing crack in one of the bolt lugs that had been there for decades through at least one arsenal refinishing job and untold numbers of .303 and .308 - and it took that deliberately gross over-stress to even call attention to the fact that there was a problem.

In your case, you have an old gun, with some markings that can be REALLY confusing to anybody not deeply immersed in cartridge history and nomenclature. It has had 70 years in which anyone could have tried and figured out that 9x19 Luger, 9x17/.380, .38 Special, .38 S&W, .38 Colt and possibly others won't work. To make matters worse, the gun is effectively rated for .303 British (.38 ACP), but it CAN chamber and fire a .300 Win Mag equivalent loading (.38 Super) without alteration. AND it looks a lot like the Colt 1911 that can shoot Supers just fine. How many folks in the last seven decades would have assumed .38 Super is what it shoots and run that extensively while not even being aware of the existence of a thing called .38 ACP? Don't bother responding - the correct answer is "A LOT".

Short version, there's a lot of historical potential for a crack to start in that link, and nobody can say for sure when it started or what ultimately killed it. Little use in trying to assign blame. It's just a good example of why you want a detailed forest service trail map when you go off the paved interstate of guns chambering current/common cartridges.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I was happy to clear a gun shop's shelf of some 9mm Largo a couple of years back (perhaps three or four boxes, at a blowout price), but the owner didn't understand why I wasn't interested in the other couple boxes from Winchester. It was also 9x23, after all

Good for you, Humpty. Another tragedy waiting to happen. Ignorance abounds.

DG

[blackhawk44]

Having been a partner in a small shop in the '60's and '70's, Llamas were considered inconsistent and unreliable. Astras and Stars, however, were solid reliable performers, some were even relabeled and sold by Colt.

[Scorpion8]

Another big fan of Spanish semi-auto pistols, as I own many. Yes, parts are getting scarce or non-existent, but they were great pistols when made and can often be kept working and useful a lot longer. I doubt many plastic semi-autos will last this long. And the Spanish makers failings was financial, not craftmanship.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

Years ago I bought a Llama in .380. It was one of the small look-a-like pistols. Any resemblance between it and the 1911 ended there. I bought the pistol for $75. It was cheap because it would not stay cocked. I thought I could fix it with a new part. I took it apart and saw that no one could fix the problem. Internally the little pistol was just a poor design. The man I bought it from had bought parts from Colt thinking they would fit. They didn't. I sold it to someone who also thought he could fix the pistol. Ishowed him the problem but he assured me his gunsmith could make it work. After about two months the gunsmith gave it back saying he could not make it work. The man I sold it to sold it to yet another man who later declared that he got the pistol working. I didn't believet the story and I never got to see the pistol work. Browning"s 1911 pistol is a marvel of design. None of the Spainish pistols are even close to it in form or funcion.

[Gtek]

You have played this game long enough, there are those that have and those that will. Don't be so hard on yourself, I thought you liked being a gunsmith? Just the bitter taste of knowing who is paying, been there, done that here.

[HumptyDumpty]

I can't relate to Gopher Slayer's experience at all, but then, all of my Spanish pistols have been Stars. I actually prefer their variation of the 1911 design, in both the BM9 and PD45. I wish they were still in business.

[Sasquatch-1]

Well, yesterday I decided to field strip the pistol and give it a good cleaning and inspection. I noted that the barrel was reluctant to unlock from the slide, and it took several jerks to get it off the front of the frame. Next, I removed the barrel and link from the slide, and the link fell out onto my desk in two pieces. Long past the time in which a return might be accepted.


I'm sure that I'll be able to repair it using a link for a 1911, as the size is very similar. Any radius difference can probably be solved using a Dremel and rotary stone, and the thickness can be adjusted with a flat needle file. Unfortunately, Llama is now about 20 years out of business.


DG

You might try the following link. They have a lot of barrel links. You may find a close match to what you need.
https://www.egwguns.com/1911-parts/s.../barrel-links/

[WRideout]

I have a Star PD in 45 ACP that I love. Also have a S&W clone revolver made by Hermanos Beistegui, chambered in 32-20. Both are well-made and reliable.

Wayne