That's too simpleOriginally Posted by indian joe
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That's too simple
Some of these jams have nothing the style of the bullet; the length of the nose is the problem. That was the case with the Rossi in question, as long as the cartridge length didn't interfere with the lifter getting the cartridge into position, they fed perfectly.
So yes, we get it, but at least for me, that's not a reason to give up and go back to 150 year old technology.
35W
The biggest waste of time is arguing with the fool and fanatic who doesn't care about truth or reality, but only the victory of his beliefs and illusions.
There are people who, for all the evidence presented to them, do not have the ability to understand.
NRA Life Member
Lots of lever guns run straight walled cartridges perfectly well. My R92 runs both 44 mag and 44 special without a hiccup of any kind. At least some lever guns run Keiths. I don't think the question is "Why aren't we all giving up and reverting to bottle necked RNFPs?", the question is "Why are some lever guns so finicky and how can we tune them to be like the ones that aren't?"
Most issues with 92’s feeding can be traced to cartridge length, bullet nose profile, or cartridge guide clearance. I would start with forgetting about using SWC bullets. They have a sharp shoulder and will normally catch on the inlet to the chamber. Use RF nosed bullets. Cartridge length. You will need to load up a few dummy rounds. Start really short and try them. If they don’t feed, add 20 thou and try again. You should hit a sweet spot where they feed pretty well. Now you have round flat nosed cartridges that should feel well. If you are still having issues, check the clearance between the cartridge and the cartridge guides as it is feeding up through the guides. If this clearance is more than a couple of thou, you need to install a shim behind the right cartridge guide. Once you get this clearance correct, you should have a rifle that will reed flawlessly as fast as you can work the action.
Also, don’t pussyfoot around when cycling the rifle. Work the action like theres a bear coming at you. If you go real slow and easy it may hiccup.
Good Luck.
Sam Sackett
Last edited by Sam Sackett; 02-27-2023 at 01:25 PM.
I can’t use the longer bullets in my 92. 429215 works great though. I mostly use a RNFP 200gr bullet.
I once saw a picture of 11 different bullets that each came from a mold labeled "429421". I think the next picture was 12 or 13 labeled 454424. You are going to have to check and see what fits. I think the rf style has a wider nose so it isn't the meplate but the nose length that hangs things up.
[The Montana Gianni] Front sight and squeeze
I once had a Rossi in 44-40, and strangely enough the Lee 240 gr TLSWC fed like butter while any other SWC that I tried……didn’t. Expensive XTP bullets fed great.
So I just used that Funky Lee bullet.
I’ve never had a .44 magnum Rossi, but all 3 of the .357 Rossis that I’ve owned worked the best with .38 Special ammo.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That 429421 pic would be interesting to see.
This is a very interesting discussion.
Think of your 1982 like a auto-feeder. Those typically don't feed SWCs either. However, with some delicate tuning and modification, they can and will feed select SWCs. This model rifle was developed and designed to feed the - cartridges by Winchester... Even in the case of .44-40 the case is bottlenecked and the original projectiles were RFN. Expecting a straight walled cartridge & a fat meplat to feed thru one without some work is probably tantamount to frustration. 'Sides, driving a couple of hours to visit a friend isn't a chore, is it?
Edited to add: Load up some RFN of a suitable weight and take dummies of those along... kill two birds in one trip!
Griff
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my old unmolested, slicked or polished Rossi 94 feeds the 432640 lube sized to .431 most smoothly
See Post #18.
35W
The biggest waste of time is arguing with the fool and fanatic who doesn't care about truth or reality, but only the victory of his beliefs and illusions.
There are people who, for all the evidence presented to them, do not have the ability to understand.
NRA Life Member
agree with all of this - I already said some of it
specially reinforce the last sentence - drive it like ya stole it - however they called it a finger lever for a darn good reason - work it with fingers not fist else you break something if it does jam.
boolit nose profile ? part of how these guns work is when the boolit is angling up off the lifter the nose (side not front) strikes the top of the chamber and that helps to kick the rear end up off the lifter and in line with the bolt so it can enter the chamber cleanly - as Sam says the SWC with a shoulder can often snag on the rear edge of the chamber - but the other part of the story is a RNFP has very minimal friction contact in the chamber as it does this - a SWC has a straight slope from shoulder to meplat and if that angle happens to strike the roof of the chamber in full contact (shoulder to nose) then the friction contact is magnified many times over - one more reason why some do and some dont with these funky boolits.
With the proper nose profile a 92 should feed any length round that will clear the action
cartridge guides - if your gun will stovepipe (sticking out the top of the action) a round mid cycle - its broken - FIX IT!! the guides are designed to prevent this happening. That John Wayne spin cycle thingy is do able with a properly functioning 92
woulda thought cartridge length suitable to the action was a given ? kind of a "duh" moment.............
cast lead boolit is modern technology ?
tell me whats so superior about a SWC over a RNFP at the impact end ---I missed that lesson someplace
I hadn't seen that article, thank you for the link. I don't suppose you have any others along those same lines?
Evidently you did miss that lesson. Have you not shot game with both type bullets so as to know why the SWC is favored over the RNFP for hunting? Have you read Keith's SIXGUNS and why the SWC was developed?
35W
The biggest waste of time is arguing with the fool and fanatic who doesn't care about truth or reality, but only the victory of his beliefs and illusions.
There are people who, for all the evidence presented to them, do not have the ability to understand.
NRA Life Member
in a carbine they should shoot fine. Lower performance, but safe in the mag cases Just keep the OAL to same/less than that of the Mag charge...
well thanks -- that was fun - got a derogatory comment and no useful information.
Yeah I have the book - read it - several places he says his boolit is a better killer - no explanation why - talks about blowing up small game - birds - jackrabbitts - the kind of stuff Aussies would normally take on with a 22lr and maybe have something left for the pot.
Nowhere in it (that I can find) does he give us a direct comparison (pictures) of soft lead winchester profile style boolits vs the SWC design - he does talk about the SWC shoulder giving better stability and accuracy in a pistol due to improved alignment in the cylinder and that makes plenty of sense.
We have different game downunder - only practical hunting use for these pistol calibre carbines is feral pigs - there you want plenty penetration so his HP designs are out of the picture = too much too soon - a soft lead slug with a decent load under it is about as good a stopper as you can get and I think you would have a hard time proving that the little shoulder on the SWC design added anything useful to that effect. Getting the alloy composition lined up with available velocity worth much more I think.
ps If you get a feed jam caused by Elmers "superior killer" design as that snotty old tusker comes tearing around the end of the water trough at you intent on ripping your calf muscle off the bone - might cause a rethink on some of this?
Last edited by indian joe; 03-11-2023 at 12:06 AM.
When you reply to a thread with sarcasm, you'll typically get that back in return.
If you don't know why a SWC or any bullet with a wide flat nose kills better than a round nose bullet, there's probably not much I can do or say to help you. I actually carry a couple of cartridges with RN bullets with me when I'm out hunting or just bumming around the pasture. I carry the RN's because I know they won't destroy meat should I decide to shoot a quail or rabbit. And if I'm really after small game, said RN is loaded such that it is the first cartridge aligned when the hammer is drawn. A few years ago in South Texas I had just such an occasion when I walked within about 20 yds. of a covey of blue quail. I shot one of the birds with my .44 Special and a 245 gr. cast RN-
Betcha can't see the bullet entrance hole....it's just behind the root of the right wing and I had to part the feathers to see it. The exit hole was much the same. So if you want to hunt "snotty old tuskers" with a bullet that performs like that, more power to you.
I've shot many head of game with SWC's, but don't always bother to take photos of the damage. But a couple of years ago I shot a buck with my .45 Colt revolver loaded with a 288 gr. SWC loafing along at a bit under 1000 fps. He was 41 yds. out so the bullet would've been traveling a bit under 950 fps when it went through his lungs-
A RN bullet that won't even cut the feathers of an upland bird such as a quail stands no chance of doing that kind of damage in large game.
And where hogs are concerned, I'm quite familiar with them, having killed six or seven of them in the last 12 months, four of them since December, three of them a little over 100 yds. off the front porch of my house.
You seem unsure of why Keith developed his endearing and timeless bullet, so you might want to start in SIXGUNS on page 227. I would guess he didn't take pictures of bullet damage because in his time it wouldn't have been exactly convenient to carry a Brownie camera into the field.
35W
The biggest waste of time is arguing with the fool and fanatic who doesn't care about truth or reality, but only the victory of his beliefs and illusions.
There are people who, for all the evidence presented to them, do not have the ability to understand.
NRA Life Member
[QUOTE=35 Whelen;5547466]When you reply to a thread with sarcasm, you'll typically get that back in return.
well seems to me you started the sa stuff with this -----" that's not a reason to give up and go back to 150 year old technology."
FWIW I dunno where you got the roundnose thing from - ???? the boolit I commonly shoot in my 44/40 is a 225 grain with a FLAT meplat 5/16" across - much wider than that and you start to lose the smooth feed. even the LEE boolit (which gives a nose profile very similar to original winchester loadings) has a FLAT quarter inch meplat> I dont own a roundnose mold and I dont shoot em in any of my lever guns - so you have got your wires crossed on that issue - twerent me !! You dont get what I was talking about as far as boolit shape suitable to the 92?? - its the profile from edge of the meplat to the crimp groove - all the easy feeders have a curve there - Elmers are straight and he added that nice little interrupter shoulder as well - creates a problem in some lever guns because he designed em for sixguns where they dont create any problem - not all that complicated really!
I spose me bein a dumb ass Aussie and you bein a merican of superior intellect and stature I am expected to bow to your opinion - what would he know eh?
If you don't know why a SWC or any bullet with a wide flat nose kills better than a round nose bullet, there's probably not much I can do or say to help you.
there ya go ! I didnt say zip about round nose boolits but ya happy to brand me a fool cuz you thought I did
Your first post was indicative of use of the original-style bullets which are typically referred to as RNFP(round nose flat point), and whose flat points are small for caliber, meaning they have similar performance to a RN bullet. But yes, you are correct in that they are not true RN bullets. My mistake.
That said, I've used this style bullet in the field in my 38 WCF (one deer, one boar, and one Tom)
and 44 WCF a few times on game and in my experience they just don't kill as quickly as a SWC. With the 38 WCF the above buck managed to jump two fences and run half a football field before expiring. I shot the boar at dusk and never did find him, and the turkey required a second shot. The buck I shot with the .44 was spined and dead before he hit the ground, so any bullet would've worked with that shot.
If these bullets are working for you, that's great! I'd love to see some of your photos of bullet damage, and also what were details of the problems you had with SWC's feeding in your levers?
All that aside, if you go back to Post #18, you can read that 2 weeks ago I tried three different SWC's loaded in .44 Magnum brass and crimped in their crimp grooves in my buddies '92 Rossi. Two fed perfectly (Lyman 429215 & 429421) and one didn't (RCBS 44-250-K). The one that failed to feed did so because the cartridge was a tiny bit too long for it to easily clear the magazine. So the problem has been solved.
Anyhow, again, I'm glad the old-style bullets work well for you and you should definitely keep using them.
Looking forward to those photos!
35W
The biggest waste of time is arguing with the fool and fanatic who doesn't care about truth or reality, but only the victory of his beliefs and illusions.
There are people who, for all the evidence presented to them, do not have the ability to understand.
NRA Life Member
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