9mm keyhole

[gloob]

I'm curious as to why jump straight to 0.358 from 0.356?

Serious answer:

358 is more common size for bullets for sale, bullet molds, sizing dies. And if you have issues chambering them, you can size them down to 357 and give that a try. Then buy 357 bullets in the future, if that's what works best. If you try 357 bullets and they work good enough, you still won't know if 358 wouldn't work better unless you do a chamber cast.

You don't always want to limit your bullet to 1 thous over groove size in most firearms that aren't revolvers. That's not a magic formula to get the best accuracy. (And even with revolvers, a lot of shooters go way over bore size in order to adequately fill the cylinder throats, versus going 1 thous over groove.) But there are definite and immediate benefits of trying to achieve within 1 thous under leade size; less lube smoke in rifles and locked breech semiauto pistols; usually better accuracy and/or higher velocities without fouling, all else equal (if for no other reason than you'll have more of the lube on the bullet, rather than shooting out the muzzle partly burned in a cloud of smoke). Only real downside is that your ammo might not fit other guns.

So the safest/cheapest route for someone who doesn't already have chamber casting material and desire to do that is buy a small amount of 358 bullets to try. Then buy a 357 sizer, if needed, which will cost less than 500 commercial bullets (and which can be opened out to 358, if desired, in the future). Then you'll know what bullet mold or commercial bullets to buy! If you want to go straight into casting your own, 358 bullets with the correct weight for 9mm will also work in 357/38 revolvers or rifles, if you have those, too.

[hades]

Serious answer:

358 is more common size for bullets for sale, bullet molds, sizing dies. And if you have issues chambering them, you can size them down to 357 and give that a try. Then buy 357 bullets in the future, if that's what works best. If you try 357 bullets and they work good enough, you still won't know if 358 wouldn't work better unless you do a chamber cast.

You don't always want to limit your bullet to 1 thous over groove size in most firearms that aren't revolvers. That's not a magic formula to get the best accuracy. (And even with revolvers, a lot of shooters go way over bore size in order to adequately fill the cylinder throats, versus going 1 thous over groove.) But there are definite and immediate benefits of trying to achieve within 1 thous under leade size; less lube smoke in rifles and locked breech semiauto pistols; usually better accuracy and/or higher velocities without fouling, all else equal (if for no other reason than you'll have more of the lube on the bullet, rather than shooting out the muzzle partly burned in a cloud of smoke). Only real downside is that your ammo might not fit other guns.

So the safest/cheapest route for someone who doesn't already have chamber casting material and desire to do that is buy a small amount of 358 bullets to try. Then buy a 357 sizer, if needed, which will cost less than 500 commercial bullets (and which can be opened out to 358, if desired, in the future). Then you'll know what bullet mold or commercial bullets to buy! If you want to go straight into casting your own, 358 bullets with the correct weight for 9mm will also work in 357/38 revolvers or rifles, if you have those, too.

OP is casting his own though so I didn't think what sizes are available commercially was really a factor.

I've only got a few 9mm molds and they both cast big enough to size to whatever I need 0.358 or less. I'm running mine 0.356 with excellent accuracy across 3 pistols and I have not noticed any keyholing back to 50 yards. Most of my shooting is at steel but if they were key holing I feel like the loss in accuracy would be noticable at 40 yards and I wouldn't be able to hit the plates I can usually hit.


I guess if I was guessing in what size, without slugging the barrel, I'd try 0.357 first then 0.358.

It just seemed weird to me to skip a size so I was curious if there was any rationale behind it.

Because just like you mention 0.358 might not chamber on some guns and thats never fun.

[gloob]

I believe OP tried 358, already. He mentioned having issues with chambering with certain headstamps at 358. Maybe he was just anticipating potential problems rather than actually trying it. Can't remember.

Any rate, doing it like this is a sort of way to indirectly "cast" your chamber and leade. So you would know that 357 is max you can go without sorting headstamps, rather than just incrementally going larger until you shoot fine... with that particular bullet, hardness, and powder charge?

If that's not a sufficient answer, then some of us are plain wrong and backwards. That's ok too, isn't it? I load 'em at 358. My 9mm mold drops them slightly under. 3585 in one dimension, but about 357 overall. That's kinda nice, because I don't need to size them for my guns. But 358 bullets work slightly better if I want to push them faster, or use faster/cheaper powder, or use softer alloy. No brass sorting or even taper crimp needed for my guns.

I want the best shooting bullet out of my own guns, and that includes lube smoke. If I notice lube smoke, then I have a problem. Using the largest bullet that fits the leade will completely nix lube smoke; less than factory jacketed ammo, in my case. If you're lucky, you can do that before you get chambering or brass thickness problems. In some cases, the chamber is too tight compared to the leade, and you can't. Lube smoke is one of the things that prevents me from buying a blowback carbine. If and when I do, I'll have to also start powder coating.

No worries about the future for me. If I buy a tighter 9, that's just a new project to figure out what's best for it. I don't anticipate ever selling my current 9's.

[wolfdog]

I'm curious as to why jump straight to 0.358 from 0.356?


I'd suggest slugging your barrel and then you'd know for sure at least what the minimum you should size to.

I agree with any and all comments about the transition from super-sub sonic having zero impact on the key holing issue you're seeing.

Post is correct, I can not find something readily in .357, lots in .358. My bbl slugged at .3565.

[wolfdog]

I believe OP tried 358, already. He mentioned having issues with chambering with certain headstamps at 358. Maybe he was just anticipating potential problems rather than actually trying it. Can't remember.

Any rate, doing it like this is a sort of way to indirectly "cast" your chamber and leade. So you would know that 357 is max you can go without sorting headstamps, rather than just incrementally going larger until you shoot fine... with that particular bullet, hardness, and powder charge?

If that's not a sufficient answer, then some of us are plain wrong and backwards. That's ok too, isn't it? I load 'em at 358. My 9mm mold drops them slightly under. 3585 in one dimension, but about 357 overall. That's kinda nice, because I don't need to size them for my guns. But 358 bullets work slightly better if I want to push them faster, or use faster/cheaper powder, or use softer alloy. No brass sorting or even taper crimp needed for my guns.

I want the best shooting bullet out of my own guns, and that includes lube smoke. If I notice lube smoke, then I have a problem and the powdercoaters are "right." Lube smoke is one of the things that prevents me from buying a blowback carbine. If and when I do, I'll have to also start powder coating.

No worries about the future for me. If I buy a tighter 9, that's just a new project to figure out what's best for it. I don't anticipate ever selling my current 9's.

Nope, I played around with some .358, one was the 125/358 and the other were some 158/358s. I couldn't get the 158s to chamber and they were just for fun to see if I could. The 125s had to be seated super deep to chamber and still hung up once in a while. Accuracy was meh and I was still getting some leading. Honestly, I have this .357 mag project that's a lot more rewarding. I just put new snake themed Alemont grips on my ruger GP100 and picked up the 158 plain base 6 cavity lee mold. I'm hoping to replace my GC bullets with PB and save a bit on cost. My gun tends to like 158s at about 1400fps anyway so a GC may not be needed.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

A friend was having accuracy and leading issues with a 130 gr RN mold from NOE. He was sizing to .356 as that is what his barrel slugged. At my suggestion he powder coated and sized to .358. Then he had trouble with the loaded round preventing the pistol from going completely into battery. I suggested sizing to .357. Both problems solved.

[wolfdog]

A friend was having accuracy and leading issues with a 130 gr RN mold from NOE. He was sizing to .356 as that is what his barrel slugged. At my suggestion he powder coated and sized to .358. Then he had trouble with the loaded round preventing the pistol from going completely into battery. I suggested sizing to .357. Both problems solved.

It's 100% possible I can solve this. The question is, in 9mm, is it worth it? I'm casting and getting success in 38-55, 45-70, 35rem, 357mag for several guns, 38spl, 380acp, 45acp, and 54 cal ML. I think maybe I'll just let this one eat jacketed. Now keep in mind, I've got a 9mm Hellcat that eats all my mistakes with ease and doesn't lead. It just does it's thing. That Canik though...so picky. But man that gun shoots fast, and is more accurate than it should be with jacketed. I'm going to let this gun win and just stick with jacketed in 9mm. That lets me really focus on my other project. My ruger GP100 has been an outstanding hunting arm. I really want to find it's sweet spot and see what it will do this summer. I hated the Hogue grips and got some Alemont snake patter and this thing is SWEET. Fits me so much better (small hands), had to get the compacts, Pics and new thread soon, maybe this weekend.

[hades]

It's 100% possible I can solve this. The question is, in 9mm, is it worth it? I'm casting and getting success in 38-55, 45-70, 35rem, 357mag for several guns, 38spl, 380acp, 45acp, and 54 cal ML. I think maybe I'll just let this one eat jacketed. Now keep in mind, I've got a 9mm Hellcat that eats all my mistakes with ease and doesn't lead. It just does it's thing. That Canik though...so picky. But man that gun shoots fast, and is more accurate than it should be with jacketed. I'm going to let this gun win and just stick with jacketed in 9mm. That lets me really focus on my other project. My ruger GP100 has been an outstanding hunting arm. I really want to find it's sweet spot and see what it will do this summer. I hated the Hogue grips and got some Alemont snake patter and this thing is SWEET. Fits me so much better (small hands), had to get the compacts, Pics and new thread soon, maybe this weekend.

Up to you, and 357 is definitely fun!

Since you've got the mold already I'd be pretty tempted to drive this home and try and figure it out. There's not That many variables. Sizing the 0.357 sounds like the next logical step from what I'm reading that you've all tried.

[wolfdog]

Up to you, and 357 is definitely fun!

Since you've got the mold already I'd be pretty tempted to drive this home and try and figure it out. There's not That many variables. Sizing the 0.357 sounds like the next logical step from what I'm reading that you've all tried.

I don't have the mold for the 125 flat point. I got a bunch of bullets from that mold from another member. So I have the undersized .356 mold only. My gas check seater is supposed to be .358, but actually sizes to .360. I use it for my 35Rem. I'm not even sure how I would size to .357, would i need a new lee sizing die as well? Do they make one in .357?

[hades]

I don't have the mold for the 125 flat point. I got a bunch of bullets from that mold from another member. So I have the undersized .356 mold only. My gas check seater is supposed to be .358, but actually sizes to .360. I use it for my 35Rem. I'm not even sure how I would size to .357, would i need a new lee sizing die as well? Do they make one in .357?

Ahh gotcha. Yes Lee makes a .357 sizer die. Titan has it on sale for 'sale' for $20.49 right now.


I made the switch a little late but switched over anyways to NOE bushing die system. Little more to get started but then size bushings are much ch cheaper than $20-25 per from Lee.

I think his die body kit is OOS right now though.

[popper]

My bbl slugged at .3565 -- same as both my sub compact 9mm so I use 357 - works fine. Yes, Lee makes a 357 die, what I use. I don't use Lee TL molds. One thing I noticed about 9mm. If you don't push them fast enough, you get tumbling farther down range. 40sw will do it too but I run them hotter.

[wolfdog]

My bbl slugged at .3565 -- same as both my sub compact 9mm so I use 357 - works fine. Yes, Lee makes a 357 die, what I use. I don't use Lee TL molds. One thing I noticed about 9mm. If you don't push them fast enough, you get tumbling farther down range. 40sw will do it too but I run them hotter.

Lol, I pushed a 124grn to over 1200fps, how much faster do I need! I may return to this project someday, but with 9mm being so cheap and me shooting it a bit, if my time has any value, it's not cheaper. I plan to push a .358 to .360 PB either PC or TL bullet from the .357mag at 1400ish fps. The gun seems to always shoot bullets in that velocity well and not lead. And I've killed deer at that speed before. 1500 always seems to be where I start seeing problems in this revolver. I do have a GC bullet just in case there are issues, and I have a 148grn WC load that I've killed deer with that is way more accurate than it should be if everything else fails.

[gloob]

Shhhhh! You're ruining our fantasy of saving bucketloads of money by using cast 9mm bullets. I don't check the price of factory 9mm ammo. If I did, I might buy it.



... just so I can pull the bullets and use the primers and powder for cast bullets.

[wolfdog]

Shhhhh! You're ruining our fantasy of saving bucketloads of money by using cast 9mm bullets. I don't check the price of factory 9mm ammo. If I did, I might buy it.



... just so I can pull the bullets and use the primers and powder for cast bullets.

There's a more fun way to pull bullets, you lose the powder and primer though...

[gloob]

Well, now. The only thing more fun is saving money each time you pull that trigger!

I remember when I started reloading. I bought Berry's plated, at first. Then Rainier's for a couple cents less. Then I bought a box of 356 cast, for a few pennies cheaper. They fouled my barrel and probably wouldn't hit the side of a barn past 120 yards. But as long they went bang and were accurate to 50 yards, I was having fun. And just look at all these empty cases scattered all over the ground, ready to be reloaded!

I even developed a routine of loading one plated bullet at the bottom of each mag, to shoot out most of the fouling. I couldn't have been happier, shooting this crap ammo, at the time.

Over the years, I figured out the case swaging thing. I got a better expander and bigger boolits. And here I am today.

I went through my stash and found some 100ish of these cartridges. Yep, I could still shoot 'em. But I must have entered hoarding mode due to the price of primers. I pulled them all, with a kinetic puller. Socked away the precious unobtanium Unique powder for other uses. Gas checked those bullets and replaced the powder with something I have in much more abundance. Now I can take them out to admire their greatness every now and then, before putting them back in into a box.

If and when I finally shoot them, it's unlikely I will be trying to shoot a golfball at 80 yards. I probably won't even know the difference. I think I was having more fun in the beginning!

[wolfdog]

Well, now. The only thing more fun is saving money each time you pull that trigger!

I remember when I started reloading. I bought Berry's plated, at first. Then Rainier's for a couple cents less. Then I bought a box of 356 cast, for a few pennies cheaper. They fouled my barrel and probably wouldn't hit the side of a barn past 120 yards. But as long they went bang and were accurate to 50 yards, I was having fun. And just look at all these empty cases scattered all over the ground, ready to be reloaded!

I even developed a routine of loading one plated bullet at the bottom of each mag, to shoot out most of the fouling. I couldn't have been happier, shooting this crap ammo, at the time.

Over the years, I figured out the case swaging thing. I got a better expander and bigger boolits. And here I am today.

I went through my stash and found some 100ish of these cartridges. Yep, I could still shoot 'em. But I must have entered hoarding mode due to the price of primers. I pulled them all, with a kinetic puller. Socked away the precious unobtanium Unique powder for other uses. Gas checked those bullets and replaced the powder with something I have in much more abundance. Now I can take them out to admire their greatness every now and then, before putting them back in into a box.

If and when I finally shoot them, it's unlikely I will be trying to shoot a golfball at 80 yards. I probably won't even know the difference. I think I was having more fun in the beginning!

I have several guns I cast for. Mostly cast, tumble, load and shoot to pretty good effect. This 9mm isn't that easy, as such, I will work more on the guns that I can cast, shoot and succeed with

[gloob]

You're a darn good shot with a handgun! Great pics!

This 9mm isn't that easy, as such, I will work more on the guns that I can cast, shoot and succeed with

Having a ton of guns and different calibers is a great way to not have a problem. Kinda justifies having so many different guns, too.

[wolfdog]

You're a darn good shot with a handgun! Great pics!



Having a ton of guns and different calibers is a great way to not have a problem. Kinda justifies having so many different guns, too.

That's my theory. If I didn't cast, I have no idea how I would feed my 38-55, do they even make bullets for that round anymore?

[hades]

That's my theory. If I didn't cast, I have no idea how I would feed my 38-55, do they even make bullets for that round anymore?

What bullet do you cast for your 38-55?

A buddy of mine bought one and I've been looking/debating getting a mold and casting for him. Idk what to think about the Lee 'boattail' design...

The one from MP looks nice but kinda wish it was a plain base.

[wolfdog]

What bullet do you cast for your 38-55?

A buddy of mine bought one and I've been looking/debating getting a mold and casting for him. Idk what to think about the Lee 'boattail' design...

The one from MP looks nice but kinda wish it was a plain base.

I went with the lee boat tail design, 255-379 I believe. I'm often able to do MOA out to 100 yards on a good day I can pull consistent sub MOA groups, and I've killed deer out to 160 with it. Hits hard, casts easy, no leading up to about 1700fps cast from pure clip on WW alloy and air cooled. I tumble lube in a mixture of LLA and mineral spirits.