9mm keyhole

[waksupi]

Just a thought from loading .45 ACP. Seat the bullets, then crimp in a separate step.

[popper]

non-GC/PC cast bullets tumble without leaving any fouling.
Not surprised. I shot some very soft 'undersized' from 40sw, Alox lubed. Barrel looked clean. Conclusion - some rnds hit sideways, but a couple more rnds cleaned the fowling/leading from the barrel. Then the bullets hit normal. Then more keyholing. Yea, soft almost pure got undersized as the lead doesn't have any memory/springback. I size my 9mm 357 PCd. No problem. Had a problem with the 40 couple months ago shooting at a dueling tree @ 25 yds. Hardly got any hits, SIL finished up my ammo, same problem, about 100 rnds. That load does good @ 7 yds on paper! Strange stuff happens.

[wolfdog]

I'm tumble lubing but I have the conventional style, sorry if I wrote that poorly. I generally dislike the TL designs. I do have one TL bullet in .357mag that shoots ok from one of my revolvers, but other than that, I've avoided them.

[wolfdog]

Sounds like I need to check for case swaging too..will do!

[gloob]

non-GC/PC cast bullets tumble without leaving any fouling.
I shot some very soft 'undersized' from 40sw, Alox lubed. Barrel looked clean. Conclusion - some rnds hit sideways, but a couple more rnds cleaned the fowling/leading from the barrel. Then the bullets hit normal. Then more keyholing.

Hmm... the bullets that were keyholing might have fouled, and maybe the bullets that flew true were actually cleaning out the bore?

You mentioned 40 SW. I have found my 40 SW chambers are all very tight (compared to the average 9mm pistol, every other caliber has a tight chamber, lol). And I found at least two headstamps of brass that are too thick for cast bullets in my guns. This isn't about expanding. Even if you properly sized/expanded the case for your bullet, the brass would be so thick that you need a slight taper crimp to get it in the chamber, then there'd be no room for it to open back up. So the bullet would measure fine if you pulled it. But when you fire it, that's when it would be case-swaged, by the mouth of the case.

So I propose one possible theory that your mixed brass was causing some of your bullets to be swaged undersized at the time of firing.

The thickest headstamp I have found in 40SW is PMC. Second worst is Fiocchi. I have turned down the case mouths on some of these cases and that fixes the problem. It's only the very last 1/8" tops, probably just a 1/16", of the mouth that is a problem in my chambers.

When making my "lubri-luber," I found my 40 chambers are so tight I can't even get a cast bullet into my fired cases. I bet I could reload 40SW without even sizing.

I might have never figured out the problem, except I bought a Lee taper crimp die in 40. The offending headstamps would have a tight squeeze through the mouth of the die, scraping and scratching the brass over the area of the bullet, on those 2 thickest headstamps. The rest of my brass cleared the mouth of that die without touching. Well, that's what got my attention. If you take careful note, you can tell by the taper crimp. If the brass is so thick it receives/requires an actual taper crimp to chamber and not just a deflare, you might have this problem.

[deltaenterprizes]

^To throw a monkey wrench into this, all of my 9mm's have a twist rate of about 1:9 to 1:10, including original Glock 9mm barrels and aftermarket 9mm barrels made in the USA. They shoot 124 TL bullets just fine, even with soft, unquenched bullets.

The idea that twist rate causes fouling or keyholing (b/c of the bullet "tearing out" or "skidding") are possibly off base. I have seen the 9mm twist rate villianized for being too fast in many guns, and that harder bullets are required compared to other calibers of similar pressure/velocity. But harder bullets also reduce another major issue with 9mm, which causes fouling and keyholing. Case-swaging.

As far as keyholing due to too fast a twist rate, I don't believe a twist rate can be too fast (to stabilize... it might explode or "skid" if you went crazy high). A bullet that spins faster than needed will still be stable. It's when the twist rate is too low for the bullet that it keyholes.

The shallow rifling made for jacketed bullets does not hold onto the boolit so it does not get enough spin to stabilize it.

[gloob]

The shallow rifling made for jacketed bullets does not hold onto the boolit so it does not get enough spin to stabilize it.

Yes, that would theoretically be possible at some point. I suspect that would lead to fouling. Lead shearing off in the grooves, or the indents in the bullet opening out enough to allow excessive gas blowby.

My own anecdote is a mix of WW and range scrap, not water dropped. Very soft by thumbnail test. Will leave a big dent on the nose if you accidentally drop one. They shoot fine out of polygonal and button cut 9mm barrels with a ~1:9 twist. No fouling, good accuracy.

I know reloaders who knew from decades of experience that you in fact needed BHN 18+ by water quenching, else such a high twist rate would strip the bullet out. My guns don't seem to mind, though.


Now, if you were having bad fouling, and you never knew about or cared to check for case-swaging (specifically in 9mm parabellum, where it is a common issue), you might try harder bullets. And your fouling might go down to near nothing, because this reduces the case-swaging. And you would probably think the rifling is stripping out the softer bullet.

Case-swaging can cause keyholing, maybe because the base of the bullet loses significant amount of mass to fouling, typically worst at one spot on the bearing surface next to the base, and becomes unbalanced? Just a thought.

I doubt you would get good results shooting a pure lead bullet in 9mm, especially if you use a very fast powder. 9mm has some decent pressure for a pistol round. But the twist rate might have very little to do with it.

[GooseGestapo]

It’s the bullets!

You should have gotten the 120gr TC (not tumble lube).
I saw this first I the ‘90’s with the 180gr .40 TL SWC.
Also, the 125gr RN TL does same thing.

Only solution is to “beagle” the mold, and powder coat…, then size to .357”.

[wolfdog]

It’s the bullets!

You should have gotten the 120gr TC (not tumble lube).
I saw this first I the ‘90’s with the 180gr .40 TL SWC.
Also, the 125gr RN TL does same thing.

Only solution is to “beagle” the mold, and powder coat…, then size to .357”.

I did get the 120TC not tumble lube design, I just tumble lube them. I tried several things and here's where I'm at. My 380s, 35rem, 45-70, 38-55, 45 acp, and several 357mags all shoot my cast very well. My 9mms are a nightmare. With the cost of primers, powder and the time invested to play with different molds, expander balls, extra seat/crimp steps etc. I'm done messing with it in 9mm. Time vs results are not worth it. 50 rounds of FMJ 115s here is 14.99, 147 FMJ is 19.99. I'm paying 20 bucks per 100 Hornady HP/XTPs at 115grn and 23 bucks for 147s of the same. So I bought a case of 115s, a case of 147s, and 400 rounds of each 115 and 147grn XTPs. Took them to the range, at 30 yards the factory 115s and my XTP handloads all hit center and 3" groups. The 147s do a little better in my handloads and a little worse in factory. If I stock up on these things at that price, it's barely worth casting for if I consider time invested as well as the cost of primers and lead. So this one time, I'm not going to be casting. 9mm seems to be just more trouble than it's worth. I did however pick up the 158grn lee 6 cavity mold for .358 without gascheck and will be seeing if I can get a load worked up in both rifles and pistols that like that bullet. If so, my only gas checked round will be 35rem. My 38-55 is getting 1700fps with no gas check and no leading. So I bet it can be done. I also picked up 2k gas checks just in case. At less than 30 cents a round for factory, unless something changes, 9mm will be shooting those horrid copper things and factory I think, lol.

[ACC]

Good morning,
Went to the range yesterday to shoot some cast semi auto rounds. Everything was going fairly well till I took my 9mm to distance. 15-20 yards I was having pretty good success. Wandered our to 37 yards and had the vast majority of rounds hitting sideways. Bullet is a 120grn lee TC, air cooled WWs, tumble lubed in lee liquid alox mixed with mineral spirits. Gun is a canik TP9 SFX with the 5.2" bbl and load is 4.0grns of titegroup. I'm guessing this is giving me just over 1100fps and I'm coming out of super sonic? I'm considering a max charge of Win 572 which should put me at 1200+fps with the same bullet and keep me super sonic for a bit longer? Load will be carried for trail walks and camper duty as it's light and has a ton of ammo on board so shouldn't need much backup.

Here is some things to check.

If you are truly pushing this bullet to 1200 FPS then the pressure will be very close to the maximum pressure of 35000. This means your lead needs to be over 13 BNH. Both my S&W model 59 and my Taurus G2C will key hole every once and a while at maximum loads. So if your bullets are .356 diameter and you are pushing them to 1200 FPS up the hardness.

Use a caliper to check diameter.

I like my bullets to be around 10 BHN, but my 9mm's don't like it.

ACC

[gloob]

it's barely worth casting for if I consider time invested as well as the cost of primers and lead. So this one time, I'm not going to be casting. 9mm seems to be just more trouble than it's worth.

I came to the same conclusion, having no source of super cheap lead.

But I ended up with a different solution. The cost of buying cast bullets already made, sized, and lubed for me, plus a one-time purchase of a proper expander plug makes it even cheaper than loading jacketed bullets, with no additional labor of casting bullets. You also tend to save a wee bit on the powder charges.

An NOE expander plug in the proper size is $7.50-$8.00 plus shipping and handling, if you already use Lee dies.

Not sure if you had tried pulling and measuring a cast bullet yet, to check for case swaging. It's pretty easy to do.

[dverna]

I did get the 120TC not tumble lube design, I just tumble lube them. I tried several things and here's where I'm at. My 380s, 35rem, 45-70, 38-55, 45 acp, and several 357mags all shoot my cast very well. My 9mms are a nightmare. With the cost of primers, powder and the time invested to play with different molds, expander balls, extra seat/crimp steps etc. I'm done messing with it in 9mm. Time vs results are not worth it. 50 rounds of FMJ 115s here is 14.99, 147 FMJ is 19.99. I'm paying 20 bucks per 100 Hornady HP/XTPs at 115grn and 23 bucks for 147s of the same. So I bought a case of 115s, a case of 147s, and 400 rounds of each 115 and 147grn XTPs. Took them to the range, at 30 yards the factory 115s and my XTP handloads all hit center and 3" groups. The 147s do a little better in my handloads and a little worse in factory. If I stock up on these things at that price, it's barely worth casting for if I consider time invested as well as the cost of primers and lead. So this one time, I'm not going to be casting. 9mm seems to be just more trouble than it's worth. I did however pick up the 158grn lee 6 cavity mold for .358 without gascheck and will be seeing if I can get a load worked up in both rifles and pistols that like that bullet. If so, my only gas checked round will be 35rem. My 38-55 is getting 1700fps with no gas check and no leading. So I bet it can be done. I also picked up 2k gas checks just in case. At less than 30 cents a round for factory, unless something changes, 9mm will be shooting those horrid copper things and factory I think, lol.

What a refreshing post!!

I have long held the belief that cast bullets can be a poor choice. With the cost of components this becomes a greater concern. Rifle cast bullets are the worst. I see folks trying different molds, alloys, lubes, powders etc to find a decent hunting load that will give 2 MOA at 100 yards and most likely shoots into 3 MOA at 200 yards (of course people rarely test over 100 yards...people think the groups are linear and cast bullets are not). I have never needed more than 100 jacketed bullets to find a 200 yard 1.5 MOA load. And that load hits harder, has a flatter trajectory and expands reliably. I see no point in turning a .308 into a .30/30, or less, for the few head of game I harvest. And I have no need to plink with cast bullets in a high power rifle using more powder and more expensive cases than better plinking options.

BTW Wolfdog, I bought 1000 124 gr XTP bullets for my "serious" loads a couple of months ago for $200 delivered. That will last me years. Not worth messing with cast when it matters. I still shoot cast for practice as I have a supply of primers at the old price. But if primers stay at current prices, I may just buy 115 gr factory ammo for $240/k

[popper]

Gloob - no, it was an experiment with pure plus 1% Zn. 165gr PB TC ~ 950 fps with HP38. Special (proper) expander and taper crimp. XDm40. ~21k psi.

[wolfdog]

What a refreshing post!!

I have long held the belief that cast bullets can be a poor choice. With the cost of components this becomes a greater concern. Rifle cast bullets are the worst. I see folks trying different molds, alloys, lubes, powders etc to find a decent hunting load that will give 2 MOA at 100 yards and most likely shoots into 3 MOA at 200 yards (of course people rarely test over 100 yards...people think the groups are linear and cast bullets are not). I have never needed more than 100 jacketed bullets to find a 200 yard 1.5 MOA load. And that load hits harder, has a flatter trajectory and expands reliably. I see no point in turning a .308 into a .30/30, or less, for the few head of game I harvest. And I have no need to plink with cast bullets in a high power rifle using more powder and more expensive cases than better plinking options.

BTW Wolfdog, I bought 1000 124 gr XTP bullets for my "serious" loads a couple of months ago for $200 delivered. That will last me years. Not worth messing with cast when it matters. I still shoot cast for practice as I have a supply of primers at the old price. But if primers stay at current prices, I may just buy 115 gr factory ammo for $240/k

Oddly, rifle bullets for me have been simple. My first cast for gun was a 35rem Marlin 336 from 1976 with a microgroove barrel. I tried Hornady FTX, 200grn round nose, 180grn Spear Flat points, 200grn Rem core lock and had all kinds of issues. Lack of expansion on game, with the FTX, 200grn interlock. 180s wouldn't shoot for anything and 200 grain Remingtons were hard to get locally so I always had to order online. I ordered the RCBS mold, gas checks, seater, pot, dipper, LLA and some WW ingots and cast for the first time. I got fantastic results on my first attempt and have not changed the load since. I have 2, .357mag rifles that have been a breeze and a 38-55 that I have taken several dear with. All of them took to cast with almost no real work. I've killed deer with all of them with repeatable results. My 38 and 357 mag pistols were a touch more work, but all gave me clear direction and all have been successful. My 380s made me think some, but I've found effective solutions there too. I have a Lee round nose mold that I can cast from that feeds 100% in 4 out of 5 of my pistols (that browning 1911 is finicky with a tight throat). The 9mm is a different beast and with it being the cheapest ammo on the market...I fold, lol. I could probably invest in the Lee .358-125, a 357mag expander, seat and crimp in two steps, seat them a bit deep, etc. But in that time I could have a lot of other things done. I'll buy for the 9mm. It shoots great with XTPs and shoots regular FMJ well also. I'm happy with that.

[gloob]

Popper, check your 40 reloads for taper crimp. Wherever you set your taper crimp die, cases that are slightly longer or thicker at the mouth will get more of a crimp, perhaps without your knowledge. But if you back off the crimp, you might find your cases won't chamber anymore. Therein lies a potential problem with cast bullets. Gotta remove those thicker cases to shoot full size cast bullets in those guns.

Rifle cast bullets are the worst. I see folks trying different molds, alloys, lubes, powders etc to find a decent hunting load that will give 2 MOA at 100 yards and most likely shoots into 3 MOA at 200 yards

Cast rifle bullets are the best, provided you cast them yourself (they tend to be pretty expensive to buy, probably due to volume). Even a few MOA at 100 yards might not be great for a rifle... off a bench. But for offhand shooting, you'll still be miles ahead in both practical accuracy and power compared to shooting a pistol offhand. Heck, I can make a cast 223 bullet with 4 recovered .22 airgun pellets. Add a gas check, and it'll shoot 1800 fps without any lino or hardening.

Additionally, you can send cast rifle bullets with a massive range of powders. Any pistol powder or any fast to medium rifle powder will send a cast rifle bullet. You can even use super slow rifle powders with duplex loading.

[GooseGestapo]

I heartily recommend RMR bullets. rmrbullets.com Jakes prices include shipping and quality is unsurpassed.
Eley USA is using his bullets for loading their factory ammo. His prices for jacketed are often less than for competitors cast bullets.
Good luck!

[wolfdog]

I heartily recommend RMR bullets. rmrbullets.com Jakes prices include shipping and quality is unsurpassed.
Eley USA is using his bullets for loading their factory ammo. His prices for jacketed are often less than for competitors cast bullets.
Good luck!

Locally I can get 115 FMJ for 14.99/50, 147 FMJ for 19.99/50, for my reloading, Hornady 115XTPs for 20.99, 124 XTPs/21.99 and 147 XTPs/22.99. Hard to beat those prices right now. Just got a plane base SWC mold for my 357 mag. I'm going to try to work up a load for pistol and rifle that doesn't need a gas check, but I did order 2k gas checks just in case....

[dverna]

Guys.

Thanks for the lead on RMR bullets. Just ordered 1000 124 gr 9mm (Nuke) bullets to try, $117 shipped is very affordable. I have a couple of Hi-Point carbines to wring out and was worried cast bullets might not work well at the higher speeds. Looks like I should be getting 1300-1400 fps with the 124 gr. Puts it close to .357 mag out of a 4" barrel. Should be a decent coyote load to 125 yards or so,

[popper]

gloob - I plunk test all my cast loads. They all work.

[hades]

I'm curious as to why jump straight to 0.358 from 0.356?


I'd suggest slugging your barrel and then you'd know for sure at least what the minimum you should size to.

I agree with any and all comments about the transition from super-sub sonic having zero impact on the key holing issue you're seeing.