45-70 loads using 5744 powder

[Beachmk4]

I am new to the 45-70 world. I've spent the last 45 years shooting nothing but flintlock rifles and as age and some infirmities are starting to set in I am looking for a new challenge. I need some loading help using 5744 powder. I have 2 bullets I am loading and would like some expert help determining load specifications for the 525 gr. round nose lead bullet. I cant seem to find any "official" published info on this round and don't want to over load or under load these. I've guessed a bit and am thinking a good place to start is around 21.5 gr. of 5744. Does that sound about right? any suggestions will help. I am shooting a Pedersoli Sharps 45-70 32" barrel, business rifle with Soule rear sight and front globe with inserts.
I fully understand the need to work loads up but as I have never used any smokeless powder before it's a new deal. I am using an RCBS turret press and have been measuring each powder load on a scale. I've only loaded black powder up to this point but would like to try some of the 5744 powder as most people I've spoken with say it's the closest thing to black powder when used correctly.
Any help will be very appreciated.

[BLAHUT]

I load a 515gr, Lee mold, in pure lead, flat nose, for my 45/70 guide gun, with 27grs of 5744. Very accurate, kicks hard on both ends, This is for my bear gun when fishing. You can look at trapdoor loads to get an idea. I run mine over a coronagraph on my other 45/70s / 45/60 and stay at about 1200FPS with pure lead, I use these in competition, for those I have been using blackhorn209 out to 1000yds, with a 500+ Lee 3r in pure lead, very accurate..
Blackhorn209 for me was like using black, with out having to swab barrel every shot, I developed my lube to work with it in a 30" barrel, I can shoot 50 rounds with no build up, clean up is two wet patches with hopeys9 then two dry patches then oil. Blackhorn209 is expensive but works sooooo good.

[JSnover]

Lyman 51 has the data you want.
The Trapdoor loads with a 535 grain boolit run from 23-28 grains.

[Sgt H]

The long range load for my C Sharps 45-70 is 27 grains of 5744 under a Lyman 457125 which weighs 525 in 20/1. My mold has been lapped to drop at .459". My Sharps likes boolits seated to touch the lands (2.95" LOA). 25-28 grains of 5744 should get you in the 1200-1300fps range. Just have to find the node for your rifle.

[Beachmk4]

Thank you all for the help. Sgt. H, it appears we are shooting the same boolit and I am going to load up a few of each from 25 to 28 gr. Having worked up loads for muzzleloaders for so many years I figured this would be about the same.... Are you using something like tissue, cotton, Dacron fiber or something else to keep the powder against the primer?

[BLAHUT]

Thank you all for the help. Sgt. H, it appears we are shooting the same boolit and I am going to load up a few of each from 25 to 28 gr. Having worked up loads for muzzleloaders for so many years I figured this would be about the same.... Are you using something like tissue, cotton, Dacron fiber or something else to keep the powder against the primer?

I put a milk carton cut wad on top of powder then a plastic cut wad ( from a coffee can cover ) then the bullet, with blackhorn209,
NO need of anything over 5744, it is good by itself.

[indian joe]

I load a 515gr, Lee mold, in pure lead, flat nose, for my 45/70 guide gun, with 27grs of 5744. Very accurate, kicks hard on both ends, This is for my bear gun when fishing. You can look at trapdoor loads to get an idea. I run mine over a coronagraph on my other 45/70s / 45/60 and stay at about 1200FPS with pure lead, I use these in competition, for those I have been using blackhorn209 out to 1000yds, with a 500+ Lee 3r in pure lead, very accurate..
Blackhorn209 for me was like using black, with out having to swab barrel every shot, I developed my lube to work with it in a 30" barrel, I can shoot 50 rounds with no build up, clean up is two wet patches with hopeys9 then two dry patches then oil. Blackhorn209 is expensive but works sooooo good.

what rifling twist are you shooting that LEE 500+ 3R ?
I put a lot of effort into that boolit - great blackpowder design - big lube grooves - shoot a long string without fouling out - could not get it to shoot stable past 400 yards if there was any wind at all - on a dead calm day - all good - bit of a breeze and sideways through the target at 500 yards (45/70 18" twist blackpowder)

[FrankJD]

I burnt a LOT of AA5744 with greasers in a .45-70 Sharps. Great white devil dust, if that's yer thing. However, dittos for me and that Lee 500-3R bullet - a waste of time, effort, and money. Stick with tried 'n' true .45-70 greasers ... or better yet, go the paper patch route and real black powder.

[indian joe]

I burnt a LOT of AA5744 with greasers in a .45-70 Sharps. Great white devil dust, if that's yer thing. However, dittos for me and that Lee 500-3R bullet - a waste of time, effort, and money. Stick with tried 'n' true .45-70 greasers ... or better yet, go the paper patch route and real black powder.

Frank my journey with that LEE was interesting
Got the first mold somewhere in the 1990's had been shooting their 510 grain flatpoint boolit - skinny little lube grooves - well that first old 3R mold had a wider base band than later models and I seated the boolit compressing the powder with my compound press - in the process changed the profile of the boolit nose - I guess pretty much squished it to the shape of the seating plunger (came out less pointy than before) didnt notice this until later - when I shot, the BC of that boolit really showed up I wound my sight down about 100 yards at the 500 mark to hit. All good ! went to a match and we did ok at the 600yard mark - I loaded the next lot of ammo properly and thats when the fun started (never figured how to repeat the nose squishing thing.) my mold had been bought second hand and was a bit untidy and so I bought another new one - different shape! shorter driving band - more pointy nose - didnt shoot as good as before - then they (LEE) offered a double cavity version - great ! I had a dealer thing with them and AUD$ was up so I got two - cost me a tad under 20 bucks landed - junk! somebody messed up, boolit was dropping at .454" - weight was down to 470 grains. I emailed them and they offered refund or replace but shipping back made that a waste of effort so I junked the molds and salvaged the handles for a couple of other molds I had. I waited a couple of years and then repeated the order - molds came back right size, weight was right, but the profile still more pointy than the old original. Its a good 100 or even 200yard boolit and I have shot some decent targets with it on dead calm days out to 500 but the slightest wind and its all over - its a darn shame, because the grease carry means we can shoot a good long string without cleaning and that was important to me.
I finally got the message and now using CBE 535grain in the sharps (its a copy of a Lyman Postell which is not a postel nose at all - more like a money boolit profile)
had that mold shortened back to 460 grain for my 76 winchester - still got a mob of those LEE boolits on hand.

[FrankJD]

Frank my journey with that LEE was interesting
Got the first mold somewhere in the 1990's had been shooting their 510 grain flatpoint boolit - skinny little lube grooves - well that first old 3R mold had a wider base band than later models and I seated the boolit compressing the powder with my compound press - in the process changed the profile of the boolit nose - I guess pretty much squished it to the shape of the seating plunger (came out less pointy than before) didnt notice this until later - when I shot, the BC of that boolit really showed up I wound my sight down about 100 yards at the 500 mark to hit. All good ! went to a match and we did ok at the 600yard mark - I loaded the next lot of ammo properly and thats when the fun started (never figured how to repeat the nose squishing thing.) my mold had been bought second hand and was a bit untidy and so I bought another new one - different shape! shorter driving band - more pointy nose - didnt shoot as good as before - then they (LEE) offered a double cavity version - great ! I had a dealer thing with them and AUD$ was up so I got two - cost me a tad under 20 bucks landed - junk! somebody messed up, boolit was dropping at .454" - weight was down to 470 grains. I emailed them and they offered refund or replace but shipping back made that a waste of effort so I junked the molds and salvaged the handles for a couple of other molds I had. I waited a couple of years and then repeated the order - molds came back right size, weight was right, but the profile still more pointy than the old original. Its a good 100 or even 200yard boolit and I have shot some decent targets with it on dead calm days out to 500 but the slightest wind and its all over - its a darn shame, because the grease carry means we can shoot a good long string without cleaning and that was important to me.
I finally got the message and now using CBE 535grain in the sharps (its a copy of a Lyman Postell which is not a postel nose at all - more like a money boolit profile)
had that mold shortened back to 460 grain for my 76 winchester - still got a mob of those LEE boolits on hand.

I just don't trust Lee molds for casting anything but muzzleloader balls, and in that respect I find them to be the best so far, with Tanner brass molds a close second. For BPCR type applications, I want a single cavity mold only. Getting away from BPCR greasers and moving on to paper patching slicks that I cast from BACO and Accurate molds means I'll Never go back to greasers. Amen. YMMV.

[indian joe]

I just don't trust Lee molds for casting anything but muzzleloader balls, and in that respect I find them to be the best so far, with Tanner brass molds a close second. For BPCR type applications, I want a single cavity mold only. Getting away from BPCR greasers and moving on to paper patching slicks that I cast from BACO and Accurate molds means I'll Never go back to greasers. Amen. YMMV.

Agree with you on the LEE ball molds, value for money hands down - Pedersoli make as good - cast iron - a better range of sizes - much more spendy.

LEE has a handful of good blackpowder/cowboy molds for cartridge guns -- do we expect too much ? a complete LEE mold sells for less than a set of handles from many other makers.

I stick with the grease job until I get that figured out properly - used to do roll yr own terbaccy and they always ended up ugly

[Sgt H]

I use no fillers with 5744. Tried dacron and I did not find it to make a measurable difference. Regarding the Lee500-3R boolit I have a theory on why many seem to have accuracy/stability issues. I believe due to it's design/shape the center of gravity is too far towards the rear of the boolit. Many more traditional designs such as Lyman 457125 or close copies, postell designs, old Ballard semi spitzers, RCBS 500BPS, ect. have the center of gravity much farther forward. The more forward the COG the less susceptible it is to stability or yaw problems.

[semtav]

I put a milk carton cut wad on top of powder then a plastic cut wad ( from a coffee can cover ) then the bullet, with blackhorn209,
NO need of anything over 5744, it is good by itself.

Not only no need, but "DO NOT" put any wads on top of the 5744 powder

[Eddie Southgate]

I use 5744 with 405's but I wouldn't consider any fillers, can't see why you would ever need any.

[marlinman93]

Not only no need, but "DO NOT" put any wads on top of the 5744 powder

Excellent advice! 5744 is a double base powder, and there have been documented cases of firearms damage from people using wads over powder in 5744 loads.

[Larry Gibson]

Regards last two posts [#s 14 & 15], there is a considerable difference between a "filler" and a "wad".

The use of a dacron filler is very beneficial with powders such as 5744 when used at or below TD pressure levels.

I also do not recommend the use of any "wad" to hold the powder back against the primer leaving airspace between the wad and the bullet base.

[Rockindaddy]

Indian Joe:
I have had moulds that would not drop a casting the correct diameter. Am a tool and die maker. Easy to chuck a mould in a four jaw and center the cavity. You have to premeasure the distance from the mould face so you can position an angled tool to bore the grooves to the desired depth. Lee moulds are a cupcake to do because they are aluminum and soft. The cast iron moulds just require a little slower machining. If you don't have a lathe with a four jaw find a buddy that does.

[marlinman93]

Regards last two posts [#s 14 & 15], there is a considerable difference between a "filler" and a "wad".

The use of a dacron filler is very beneficial with powders such as 5744 when used at or below TD pressure levels.

I also do not recommend the use of any "wad" to hold the powder back against the primer leaving airspace between the wad and the bullet base.

Yes, indeed there is a difference. And I have no objections to a light puffy tuft of dacron. But sometimes guys will grab all sorts of things they have on hand to use to keep the powder back, so good to be specific.
I personally don't use any kind of fillers, or wads on ANY smokeless powder loads I've ever made up. I know that many guys do so safely, but I wont use any powders that require them.
I do use filler on my BP reduced charge loads to ensure there's no air space over the powder. But my filler for BP is amaranth seed that meters really well, and maintains perfect levels in the cases. It allows me to shoot my original 1874 Sharps in .50-140 and be very comfortable 90-95 gr. Swiss 1.5fg charges.

[uscra112]

I put a milk carton cut wad on top of powder then a plastic cut wad ( from a coffee can cover ) then the bullet, with blackhorn209,
NO need of anything over 5744, it is good by itself.

In fact a wad over powder with any airspace above it is a recipe for a ringed chamber, as Charlie Dell so convincingly showed us a decade or so ago.

[marlinman93]

In fact a wad over powder with any airspace above it is a recipe for a ringed chamber, as Charlie Dell so convincingly showed us a decade or so ago.

Even if the wad isn't over the powder, it could accidentally get loose if it's on the bullet base, and drop down to the powder and create the same accident. A ringed chamber is bad, but a blown up nice single shot is worse.