32 S&W testing

[dtknowles]

I am making my own powder and decided to use my S&W 1 1/2 for testing.

I was looking around for data on what was normal for this cartridge so I would know how my powder compares to historical norms. Well, I did not find much trustworthy data.

One reference said it was loaded with 9 gr. of black powder and another said 4 grains. The source that said 4 grains said the velocity should be 550 fps.

The Lyman handbooks list a factory duplication load at 528 fps.

Other sources have factory ammo at more like 700 fps.

My testing with 6 grains of GOEX 3f black powder produced 455 fps and my homemade powder produced 395 fps. 6 grains of 3f black powder are all that I can squeeze into the case.

Not satisfied with that jumble of data I decided to dig into my stash of factory ammo and test some. One round of modern R-P head stamped ammo clocked 638 fps.

I tried three rounds of antique ammo that I expected was loaded with black powder, but they were all duds. I broke them down, weighed the powder and bullets, replaced the primers and reloaded them with the original powder.

First was a WRA round, the powder was compacted and hard to remove, I got 5 gr. of powder out of the case and the bullet weighed 84 gr. Reloaded it clocked 428 fps.

Second was a Peters round, the powder was compacted too and hard to remove, I got 5 gr. of powder out of the case and the bullet weighed 84 gr. Reloaded it clocked 508 fps.

Third was a Rem UMC round, the powder was only half compacted near the head the rest just fell out, I got 6 gr. of powder out of the case and the bullet weighed 88 gr. Reloaded it clocked 590 fps.

Does anyone else reload 32 S&W with black powder or have any other data to share.

Tim

[racepres]

Nope...Unique

[dtknowles]

Nope...Unique

All of my handloads for the 32 S&W before I tried this black powder experiment were with Red Dot, if you trust Lyman, Unique is a good choice if you are loading hottish but Red Dot is best if you stick with starting loads like they recommend for top break revolvers.

Tim

[Thundermaker]

I wonder if the sources listing 9 grains and 700fps were actually referring to 32 s&w long. That would make sense.

It's always amusing to me to look at the puny little cartridges that were considered adequate for self-defense in that era. I saw an original flier for the S&W tip-up in .22 short that said, "fires with as much force as any defensive arm."

[Littlewolf]

newest date on my H&A 32 is 1886 and .9gr HP-38 seem to work quite well. I dont have a chrono to tell you what the fps is but at 6ft the boolits from my pre-310 tool mold ventilate 1/2" cdx plywood. mind you i do have a set of lee dies for 32S&W short and the data with them says 1 - 1.1gr HP-38.

[Larry Gibson]

I pressure tested three rounds WRA 32 S&W which had 7 gr of what appeared to be very compressed 4fg BP. The psi of the 3 rounds tested averaged a very consistent 10,800 psi. Velocity with the 88 gr LRN bullets out of the 10" test barrel ran 725 fps.

One round of UMC 32 S&W with 6 gr pf BP under a 98 gr LRN bullet ran 14,200 psi.

[racepres]

All of my handloads for the 32 S&W before I tried this black powder experiment were with Red Dot, if you trust Lyman, Unique is a good choice if you are loading hottish but Red Dot is best if you stick with starting loads like they recommend for top break revolvers.

Tim

My personal experience with the 32S&W shows Red Dot loads chronographing faster than my Unique load... so I suspect they may be part of the Criteria, for "best" powder.. If FPS is an indicator of Pressure, I will stick to my Unique loads at 600 fps.. tho sr7625 with same charge is at 520 fps, so lower yet.. the 1.5 Red Dot load, May Not have been Chronoed.. I simply kept the note, "No...Too Hot".. All of the above leading me to believe that Black Powder will probably exceed My 600 fps.. if granulation is such that you can get it in that tiny Case! Me thinks 600 fps out of a 93 grain projectile, is all I will ask...

BTW Red Dot is better than excellent, IMO with 32S&W Long

[dtknowles]

I pressure tested three rounds WRA 32 S&W which had 7 gr of what appeared to be very compressed 4fg BP. The psi of the 3 rounds tested averaged a very consistent 10,800 psi. Velocity with the 88 gr LRN bullets out of the 10" test barrel ran 725 fps.

One round of UMC 32 S&W with 6 gr pf BP under a 98 gr LRN bullet ran 14,200 psi.

Thanks Larry. I love having more data. 10" barrel? 32 S&W with a 10" barrel.

Tim

[Larry Gibson]

A Contender 32 H&R barrel is used for pressure testing with the Oehler M43 PBL. It also is a chronograph and corrects screened velocity to muzzle velocity.

[GhostHawk]

Another vote for Red Dot in the .32sw long.
I use the same load and cast boolit in the .32acp.

[barnetmill]

A general caution. Those break open 32 and 38 caliber revolvers made in the 19th century will generally not stand up to loads with smokeless powers and often the frame will stretch even with modern factory ammo. Mike V, as duelist1954 on youtube has discussed this topic in at least one of his videos. Many made in the early 20th century had better steel and will take factory equivalent loads of smokeless.
Wiser to load them with black power of the proper grain size.

[kootne]

Here is some data from the day. From an undated du Pont blackpowder pamphlet that also mentions the company makes smokeless and semi-smokeless powders. I think the cartridge cases with the old folded heads and probably thinner brass will hold more volume than you will get into modern brass.
32 S&W and S&W Long are at lower right hand corner.

[dtknowles]

A Contender 32 H&R barrel is used for pressure testing with the Oehler M43 PBL. It also is a chronograph and corrects screened velocity to muzzle velocity.

ok, I get it now. That does bring into question the velocity and pressures. What amounts to a large freebore and a long barrel will lower pressures and raise velocities vs. a 3.5" barrel revolver but still useful data when understood within its limitations.

Thanks again Larry.

Tim

[dtknowles]

A general caution. Those break open 32 and 38 caliber revolvers made in the 19th century will generally not stand up to loads with smokeless powers and often the frame will stretch even with modern factory ammo. Mike V, as duelist1954 on youtube has discussed this topic in at least one of his videos. Many made in the early 20th century had better steel and will take factory equivalent loads of smokeless.
Wiser to load them with black power of the proper grain size.

Know your gun and stay within its limitations. The quality of guns of that era are all over the map. I am shooting S&W which I consider top quality. I think they can take hundreds of factory smokeless loads without degradation.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Here is some data from the day. From an undated du Pont blackpowder pamphlet that also mentions the company makes smokeless and semi-smokeless powders. I think the cartridge cases with the old folded heads and probably thinner brass will hold more volume than you will get into modern brass.
32 S&W and S&W Long are at lower right hand corner.

Thanks

Tim

[Larry Gibson]

ok, I get it now. That does bring into question the velocity and pressures. What amounts to a large freebore and a long barrel will lower pressures and raise velocities vs. a 3.5" barrel revolver but still useful data when understood within its limitations.

Thanks again Larry.

Tim

I've found the free bore due to the 32 H&R chamber emulates the free bore of the cylinder throats. Also the Contender barrel, being closed breach, doesn't lose any psi because there is no barrel/cylinder gap to bleed of psi. Thus, the psi in the revolver will be slightly less than with the Contender barrel. Other S&W loads velocity tested in my S&W 32 S&WL revolver w/3" barrel give the lower velocities you are recording. Just didn't have enough of the WRAs to also chronograph in the revolver.

[cuzinbruce]

S&W guns are better made than most of the rest but the steel is not much better. I have examined closely a break open S&W 32 that stretched. A safety hammerless.
Way too much end play at the cylinder, rotation and lock up were not reliable. Also the latch at the top was messed up. I would think black powder only.
Good Luck!

[racepres]

S&W guns are better made than most of the rest but the steel is not much better. I have examined closely a break open S&W 32 that stretched. A safety hammerless.
Way too much end play at the cylinder, rotation and lock up were not reliable. Also the latch at the top was messed up. I would think black powder only.
Good Luck!

Steel is Steel... I can remember many folks Dissing and Cussing the Dan Wesson over being "cast"... then it was mentioned that Ruger did it too... no more Pissin and Moanin...and... Check the going price on old Dan Wessons!!! Poor Fragile darn things!!!!!

[dtknowles]

S&W guns are better made than most of the rest but the steel is not much better. I have examined closely a break open S&W 32 that stretched. A safety hammerless.
Way too much end play at the cylinder, rotation and lock up were not reliable. Also the latch at the top was messed up. I would think black powder only.
Good Luck!

Do you know what caused it to stretch?

Tim

[Kosh75287]

I think I'D be tempted use to Red Dot in the .32 S&W Short, and Red Dot or Unique in the .32 S&W Long, ASSUMING that I could FIND any.
I wish you had another firearm like a .32 H&R or .327 Federal revolver, for your experimentations. The added strength of the firearms would be reassuring, when doing load work-up with home-made propellant.
Have you tried reloading with any of the commercially manufactured black powder products for comparison (or are they even available to you)? I know how the manufacturers measure THEIR various granulations, but I do not know how YOU would, except with a magnifier and a "bigger than/less than" comparison. If your black powder had exactly the same formulation as the commercial stuff, and your granulation was larger, it would lead me to expect lower velocities from it, for it will tend to be slower-burning, and less of it may be put in the case.
While I have not reloaded for the .32 Caliber straight-cased rounds, I concur with the Gent who pronounced Red Dot as being "better than excellent" in the small-case pistol and revolver calibers.