Results of My Pedersoli 1874 Sharps 45-70

[RSAPD]

This was definitely a fun thread to watch and read. I was joking with Don that I need to hurry up and get a Shiloh so I don't start arguments on here when I post results of my load development. Hahah

[Kenny Wasserburger]

it always turns into pedersoli bashing and then self-congratulating by one particular person. Happens every single time- all the time and it really gets old.

There are those that spout a lot of gas, few facts mostly conjecture and opinions based on absolutely nothing.

Then there are those that put out facts and the sordid truth. Like many forums these days the truth and facts is abhorrent for some. The funny part is this, you have absolutely nothing in the way of facts to back up your opinions. Yet are highly offended by those that do.

One of the top European shooters just rebarreled his Pedersoli, with a custom barrel and had a Shiloh Spec reamer used to chamber the rifle. He posted this on the Facebook Sharps rifle Forum, yesterday.

Not once did I bash the Pedersoli, I simply pointed out the truth in the fields of competition the actual results.

Not what I think, but just the actual results. When you find the truth offensive to your beliefs, well you probably should re-examine your opinions.

This is a public forum, when someone posts an opinion, without any factual data to back up said opinions, you will get called on it eventually.

In my opinion those expressing the greatest amount of butt hurt on this subject have absolutely the least amount of experience. There, I just expressed my opinion without any factual data to back it up. Ridiculous isn’t it?

Pedersoli sponsored a competition, expressly for the purpose to showcase the accuracy of their barrels. Dick Trenk felt that, what he perceived as the superior quality of Pedersoli Barrels would dominate this competition. In a put up or shut up match shooting for group size at 200 yards. Sadly this backfired for them. A good friend from GA won that competition 5 different times, with his 40-65 Shiloh, all sub MOA groups. All 5 groups under 2 inches. That’s the truth, damn inconvenient but the truth none the less.

Pedersoli barrels are good quality, yet are handicapped by their chamber designs. Dick Trenk again went to bat having a special bullet designed expressly for the Pedersoli chamber, moulds were made, one even sent around to many shooters to test. That’s a fact. This bullet design was to optimize and mitigate some of the shortcomings of the chamber design used by Pedersoli. It was an attempt to make their 45-70 more competitive, much of that was posted on this very forum at one time. Victory moulds I believe was the maker. It was called the PGT.

I do believe that there was some success, with that undertaking, in improving accuracy. Unfortunately the bullet never achieved the success that they hoped for in major competition. Its production quietly went away, due to a lack of demand obviously.

If you had a rifled Pedersoli blank, as it is of very high quality German gun steel, and put a proper chamber on it. You could very well have a very competitive rifle. I have shot Pedersoli sharps in a silhouette match, once, they have a few minor aesthetics issues that I do not care for, but that’s entirely personal preference. If you actually handle an original Sharps or a Shiloh then the Pedersoli, you will immediately notice what I am speaking of. When I break something on my Shiloh such as a lever spring or even a firing pin, these are replaced under warranty free of charge, even a worn out barrel. I challenge you to see where Pedersoli will do that, sir please find that information and please post it.

As I had said, I refrained from posting, till it was mentioned that such superior accuracy would keep a certain demographic of shooters quiet. When in fact in Pedersoli’s own match, such accuracy was easily bested, year after year in actual competition. By Shilohs and Badger barreled highwalls. One shooter did it 5 times, that wasn’t me. Myself just twice yet my smallest group became a world record with PP. It even beat my Grease Groove group by .400 inches. My only goal is to beat myself.

So in closing, barnabus what gets old is the nay sayers, just spouting off because the truth offends their delicate sensibilities. Without bringing any facts to the table, you’re just whining, not much of an argument. Kinda like the puppy that needs to got outside and pee.

KW

For the record the groups posted by the OP are excellent groups and very well done, my hat is definitely off to him. He is to be commended for his efforts, he has my utmost respect. In no way can anyone disparage his accomplishments, nor did I ever do so. I have every confidence that he may very well improve upon those excellent efforts.

[eastbank]

the so called fake caseharding on my ped is over 10 years old and has seen a lot of service and seems to be holding up well.

[RSAPD]

Kenny, can you explain more about why Pedersoli will not amend the design of their chambers. You have been very clear the barrels are great but Pedersoli mucks up the chambers. They have to know this and probably have known it for a very long time. And I can definitely tell the chamber is quite oversized and 405 grainers keyhole badly for me regardless of diameter. I guess maybe this is a matter of cost to change equipment for Pedersoli? I am not a metal/tool guy so I wouldn't know the obstacles.

[indian joe]

This was definitely a fun thread to watch and read. I was joking with Don that I need to hurry up and get a Shiloh so I don't start arguments on here when I post results of my load development. Hahah

I guess I am the culprit here - it was my post that got Kenny involved (I did put the big smiley after it) - didnt really mean to start a bushfire but sometimes one small spark will do that.

However for anyone that reads through this thread without getting their undies in a knot its drug out some good information from some of the top proponents in the game.

Big question is why dont Pedersoli change their reamer specs ?
I will throw one back - is it possible / likely that their chamber is more friendly to average run of the mill shooters (their target market) ?

I have two of those Italian chambered guns (lever guns not sharps) both have been easy to load for and both will shoot 100yard groups a tad under 2MOA with iron sights - I am happy to admit I am at my absolute limit doing that. Part of the reason I have got that far is I am prepared to be blasphemed ridiculed and criticised () here in order to garner information that helps the process.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Kenny, can you explain more about why Pedersoli will not amend the design of their chambers. You have been very clear the barrels are great but Pedersoli mucks up the chambers. They have to know this and probably have known it for a very long time. And I can definitely tell the chamber is quite oversized and 405 grainers keyhole badly for me regardless of diameter. I guess maybe this is a matter of cost to change equipment for Pedersoli? I am not a metal/tool guy so I wouldn't know the obstacles.

It’s one of those unsolved mysteries of the Pedersolis they believe they know better, I know for a fact Dick Trenk was trying to fix that issue. There are some old threads on this forum discussing those issues. 12-15 years ago. Since I am accused of Pedersoli bashing, when in fact I am just stating facts well know by experienced shooters. Their throats and oversized chambers are facts not bashing.
Older throats were .8 long! That’s like trying to shoot a 45-90 in a 45-120 chamber. Dick was often extremely frustrated when dealing with Pedersoli. If one chooses too you can go search that info out, it’s all here. I won’t bother posting it cause it’s Pedersoli bashing, or so claiming. When in fact the conversations are from frustration of Pedersoli owners, I don’t have to say anything bad, they are pretty upfront with their own issues.

Lastly trying to get a foreign gun builder to fix their issues, isn’t my problem Dick Trenk carried that torch, and couldn’t get much accomplished.

I am perfectly satisfied with my Shilohs, my 1877 is due any day. 16 twist 45-100, pack hardened, raised forearm panels, Rigby flat, checkering, shotgun butt checkered steel buttplate, upgraded wood and finish. It was to be my last Shiloh, or so I thought, I won another in the Shiloh match in a shoot off. Along with some very fancy English Walnut very similar to Randy’s pictures. I won it it a shoot off not a drawing.

At a Shot Show 20 years ago, Dick Trenk introduced me to Perangleo Pedersoli. He offered me a rifle to complete with, I turned him down. Explaining why. Again he offered me one free of charge, if I would compete with it in Creedmoor in 45-110, he had Dick T. Explain that the barrel would be wrapped in $100 bills. I again turned him down. Dick later Said “I told him you wouldn’t do it even for money.”
I told Trenk if I was to take such a bribe, the money would have been used to put a Shiloh barrel on it. Dick thought that was funny, he agreed that wouldn’t have went over well.

I been shooting at national championships since camp perry in 1991 been shooting BPTR since 1996. The first Creedmoor nationals was in 1997, at 1000 yards Dave Gullo was 2nd overall, 3rd was Jimbo Terry of Rawlings WY, my shooting partner and spotter. I was 4th overall. Dave was shooting his Borchardt in 45-100, Jimbo was shooting his Shiloh in 45-110, and I was shooting my Shiloh in 45-110. Van van Pelt was the winner at 1000 yards in 1997, Dave Gullo’s partner.

The cost isn’t the issue, it’s only a new chamber reamer, it’s purely the Hubris on the Italians part, thinking they have the better chamber design, when in fact the stats, say exactly the opposite.

Do you know that Pedersoli offers a free trip to the factory if you win a national championship with one of their rifles unaltered of course. No one has ever been able to claim it to date.

My observations, and the facts presented come from shooting this rifles since 1994, 29 years this coming September. Jimbo has won more Day 1 of the Creedmoor matches than anyone I know with his Shiloh 110.

One last thing: I don’t listen to criticism from someone, that I would never seek advice from.

KW.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

I guess I am the culprit here - it was my post that got Kenny involved (I did put the big smiley after it) - didnt really mean to start a bushfire but sometimes one small spark will do that.

However for anyone that reads through this thread without getting their undies in a knot its drug out some good information from some of the top proponents in the game.

Big question is why dont Pedersoli change their reamer specs ?
I will throw one back - is it possible / likely that their chamber is more friendly to average run of the mill shooters (their target market) ?

Joe, that’s possible, but in their sharps I tend to disagree, as I get too many callers that are new shooters having issues with their Pedersoli rifles. Keyholes and 6 MOA accuracy at 100 yards.

As for a brush fire only seen one post directly at me, which I did answer too but in a polite for me response.

There are old posts on here and threads ******** about Pedersoli chambers from Pedersoli owners, and their trials and tribulations, making them shoot, or trying too. And the lack of response from Pedersoli.

It’s possible that the newest offerings have sorted some of that out. I still recommend a .460 to .461 bullet to try first and go with the .461 as you can always size it down.

No ridicule here, you are making yours work.

My only reason to get into this thread was to say hey now, while the OP groups are very good, they aren’t anything extra special, and the Shilohs don’t take a back seat. Then I proceeded to share facts to back up my statements. This is where some took exception to that. They offered opinions and postulation, and conjecture, yet nothing in the way of facts to back any of that up. When that was pointed out, well then butt hurt commenced, and only one poster, in particular.

Why don’t Pedersoli change their reamer specs, that’s a good question, yet none of my concern. I own Shilohs.

Though I will admit this Thanks to Dan T and Dick T Pedersoli did offer a 38-55 high wall with a 12 twist barrel. That with a 38-50 Chamber reamer would be a highly competitive rifle in BPCR Silhouette, in my opinion. Something to ponder.

KW

[indian joe]

Joe, that’s possible, but in their sharps I tend to disagree, as I get too many callers that are new shooters having issues with their Pedersoli rifles. Keyholes and 6 MOA accuracy at 100 yards.

that would be durn dissapointing - I wonder how many of em shooting a .458 boolit and no overpowder wad

As for a brush fire only seen one post directly at me, which I did answer too but in a polite for me response.
stopped him in his tracks too eh!

There are old posts on here and threads ******** about Pedersoli chambers from Pedersoli owners, and their trials and tribulations, making them shoot, or trying too. And the lack of response from Pedersoli.

It’s possible that the newest offerings have sorted some of that out. I still recommend a .460 to .461 bullet to try first and go with the .461 as you can always size it down.

the word is well and truly out down under about pedersolis and fat boolits. I started out with both cowboy guns at .460

No ridicule here, you are making yours work.

My only reason to get into this thread was to say hey now, while the OP groups are very good, they aren’t anything extra special, and the Shilohs don’t take a back seat. Then I proceeded to share facts to back up my statements. This is where some took exception to that. They offered opinions and postulation, and conjecture, yet nothing in the way of facts to back any of that up. When that was pointed out, well then butt hurt commenced, and only one poster, in particular.

Why don’t Pedersoli change their reamer specs, that’s a good question, yet none of my concern. I own Shilohs.

Though I will admit this Thanks to Dan T and Dick T Pedersoli did offer a 38-55 high wall with a 12 twist barrel. That with a 38-50 Chamber reamer would be a highly competitive rifle in BPCR Silhouette, in my opinion. Something to ponder.

would be nice to shoot too
question ...... same plan work ok running a 45/90 reamer into 45/70- barrel ?

KW

......

[Don McDowell]

Joe it is possible to rechamber those 45-70's to a longer case, but it takes the right design and spec reamer to do it and not end up with quasi bottle necks.
Lee Shaver has been said to have the reamers that accomplish this.

[RSAPD]

It’s one of those unsolved mysteries of the Pedersolis they believe they know better, I know for a fact Dick Trenk was trying to fix that issue. There are some old threads on this forum discussing those issues. 12-15 years ago. Since I am accused of Pedersoli bashing, when in fact I am just stating facts well know by experienced shooters. Their throats and oversized chambers are facts not bashing.
Older throats were .8 long! That’s like trying to shoot a 45-90 in a 45-120 chamber. Dick was often extremely frustrated when dealing with Pedersoli. If one chooses too you can go search that info out, it’s all here. I won’t bother posting it cause it’s Pedersoli bashing, or so claiming. When in fact the conversations are from frustration of Pedersoli owners, I don’t have to say anything bad, they are pretty upfront with their own issues.

Lastly trying to get a foreign gun builder to fix their issues, isn’t my problem Dick Trenk carried that torch, and couldn’t get much accomplished.

I am perfectly satisfied with my Shilohs, my 1877 is due any day. 16 twist 45-100, pack hardened, raised forearm panels, Rigby flat, checkering, shotgun butt checkered steel buttplate, upgraded wood and finish. It was to be my last Shiloh, or so I thought, I won another in the Shiloh match in a shoot off. Along with some very fancy English Walnut very similar to Randy’s pictures. I won it it a shoot off not a drawing.

At a Shot Show 20 years ago, Dick Trenk introduced me to Perangleo Pedersoli. He offered me a rifle to complete with, I turned him down. Explaining why. Again he offered me one free of charge, if I would compete with it in Creedmoor in 45-110, he had Dick T. Explain that the barrel would be wrapped in $100 bills. I again turned him down. Dick later Said “I told him you wouldn’t do it even for money.”
I told Trenk if I was to take such a bribe, the money would have been used to put a Shiloh barrel on it. Dick thought that was funny, he agreed that wouldn’t have went over well.

I been shooting at national championships since camp perry in 1991 been shooting BPTR since 1996. The first Creedmoor nationals was in 1997, at 1000 yards Dave Gullo was 2nd overall, 3rd was Jimbo Terry of Rawlings WY, my shooting partner and spotter. I was 4th overall. Dave was shooting his Borchardt in 45-100, Jimbo was shooting his Shiloh in 45-110, and I was shooting my Shiloh in 45-110. Van van Pelt was the winner at 1000 yards in 1997, Dave Gullo’s partner.

The cost isn’t the issue, it’s only a new chamber reamer, it’s purely the Hubris on the Italians part, thinking they have the better chamber design, when in fact the stats, say exactly the opposite.

Do you know that Pedersoli offers a free trip to the factory if you win a national championship with one of their rifles unaltered of course. No one has ever been able to claim it to date.

My observations, and the facts presented come from shooting this rifles since 1994, 29 years this coming September. Jimbo has won more Day 1 of the Creedmoor matches than anyone I know with his Shiloh 110.

One last thing: I don’t listen to criticism from someone, that I would never seek advice from.

KW.

Very interesting Kenny. Thanks for taking the time to explain all that in detail. Love this forum, so much can be learned because many accomplished folks are willing to spend the time.

[indian joe]

Joe it is possible to rechamber those 45-70's to a longer case, but it takes the right design and spec reamer to do it and not end up with quasi bottle necks.
Lee Shaver has been said to have the reamers that accomplish this.

thanks - its an option for down the track.

[Don McDowell]

It will only turn out well if the machinist that opens that chamber is extremely good at getting everything centered and if the original chamber is straight
Rebarrelling probably better option all around

[FrankJD]

I had Lee Shaver line a Pedersoli bbl and cut a new .45-70 PPB chamber ... all with stellar results.

[Don McDowell]

Relining not a bad option. Saves on having to blue the new barrel and cut the dovetails etc.

[JKR]

Pedersoli 74 sharps. $2000. (Cabela’s)
Barrel liner, installed. $500+

Shiloh #3 (base price) $2500.

Hmmm!

JKR

[FrankJD]

Pedersoli 74 sharps. $2000. (Cabela’s)
Barrel liner, installed. $500+

Shiloh #3 (base price) $2500.

Hmmm!

JKR

Your statement is loaded with ambiguities, totally dependent on time frames, what's available, and at what price tags. In my case, the purchases and costs were done 5+ years ago and at that time it made perfect dollar sense to run with a new liner, and with an exclusive PPB chamber that few had access to, all at a nearly $900 less than a Shiloh or C.Sharps. So, like most all statistics, be careful with what you think they portray.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Your statement is loaded with ambiguities, totally dependent on time frames, what's available, and at what price tags. In my case, the purchases and costs were done 5+ years ago and at that time it made perfect dollar sense to run with a new liner, and with an exclusive PPB chamber that few had access to, all at a nearly $900 less than a Shiloh or C.Sharps. So, like most all statistics, be careful with what you think they portray.

If I had to go to all that effort to get a rifle to shoot, I would be seriously reevaluating my original purchase.

A standard Shiloh Chamber will shoot grease groove bullets well, plenty of data to back that up. Plus they shoot Paper patch well, again lots of data to back that statement up also. You can order a special PP throat in a Shiloh also.

Yet you’re stuck with something that shoot’s pp great but nothing else?

I don’t see a win win here.

Kenny W.

[FrankJD]

If I had to go to all that effort to get a rifle to shoot, I would be seriously reevaluating my original purchase.

A standard Shiloh Chamber will shoot grease groove bullets well, plenty of data to back that up. Plus they shoot Paper patch well, again lots of data to back that statement up also. You can order a special PP throat in a Shiloh also.

Yet you’re stuck with something that shoot’s pp great but nothing else?

I don’t see a win win here.

Kenny W.

Kenny Kenny Kenny ... to each their own, the way it should be, n'est-ce pas?

I don't care what you think or do, that's all that matters ... to me. Get it?

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Kenny Kenny Kenny ... to each their own, the way it should be, n'est-ce pas?

I don't care what you think or do, that's all that matters ... to me. Get it?

Oh I get it, definitely, I do lol.

Kenny W.

[RSAPD]

Anyhow, back to things responding to physics and not opinions - I have a question about fire formed cases. The cases that I shot based on this thread, I just reloaded. I have not been resizing or expanding and just clean well and anneal. I had about 10 that were enlarged near the base of case and would not chamber. What does this mean? Do some fire formed cases need to be FL resized every once in awhile?