Results of My Pedersoli 1874 Sharps 45-70

[FrankJD]

I just started learning about BP and been working awhile on trying to figure things out and determine the best load. I think I have it pretty dialed in because of all the advice and input you all have given here. Yesterday, I shot a group at 2.8 inches at 200 yds and 2.25 inches at 330 yds. They were only 5 shot groups as I was testing loads but I think this shows the load is consistent. If anyone cares, this is what worked - 66gr Swiss 1.5 (weighed), 520gr bullet at .460 with .06 fiber wad, WLR primer. Wiped after each shot but still trying to learn this fouling control thing but it seems wiping does produce consistency after I've shot a few rounds. My first two shots were left.

Considering what you've done with such a "bottom feeder" Sharps, it sure looks to me like you've "arrived". And that's considering the ammo you've loaded and how ya put it all together, not exactly "BPCR kosher" as some might think. Lotta Shiloh and C.Sharps owners couldn't do what you claim to have done at those distances. Just sayin'. Your amalgam of shooter, load, and rifle simply works, for you. In the long run, you pays yer money and you use what ya got. You've done well, no matter what anyone sez. That you would do better with a Shiloh is speculative conjecture.

Yep, the price tag on Pedersoli BPCR (and other) guns has risen quite significantly, and some aren't so easy to find in stock. Purchase time is the other factor. In the case of Shiloh, it could be years before they want the rest of your down payment so they can ship yer gun. Just sayin'.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I don't know why the 'spaggiti guns' are so underrated. IMHO they make the best match grade barrels period. I have done chamber and muzzle casts and confirm the barrels are tapered with progressive depth rifling. The 45/70 and 45/90 measure 0.458"/0.450" at the chamber and 0.458"/0.4515 at the muzzle, a taper of 1.5 thou. The 50/70 with it's 34" barrel has a 0.002" taper. No other barrel manufacturer does this step. Reading books from Mann & Pope, they also recommend the progressive depth rifling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VeZynGoIQo

[Tom Trevor]

Are you sure? The taper should be from breech to muzzle not the other way around.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Kenny, I remember the late Dick Trenk helping spread the word on the Pedersoli 5 at 200. That's been a while.
As to the Pedersoli Sharps rifles never making it to the winner's circle -- I wonder if it is more because the really talented shooters are willing to put a lot of resources into their gear -- and their rifles come from Shiloh or C. Sharps, and not Pedersoli. The one Shiloh I had was definitely a better-built rifle than the Pedersolis that passed through my hands, but I bet if a winning shooter screwed a Pedersoli barrel into his Shiloh action, he'd still have a great shooter.

Not with a Pedersoli chamber he won’t. Has to go to a .460 bullet to fit the fired cases, that then gets swagged down in that barrel. They go to great efforts in securing barrel steel from Germany then Broach rifle it. Only to muck up the chamber.

None of you guys are touching on the cold hard fact that Pedersoli chambers are on the generous side size wise. Which isn’t conducive of best accuracy.

Except for their 45-110 chambering. That chamber reamer was developed off 3 dummy cartridges, from a 45-110 Shiloh. I give you 3 guesses, an intermediary approached a fella out of Wyoming for those 3 dummy rounds. At least they got that one right.

That particular rifle has won two Creedmoor scope Class National championships. Has the world record for PP group and was the first BPCR to hit the one mile target, and holds the record for score in a single relay 8/10 hits at 1 mile.


Wondering and postulating replies still don’t refute the cold hard facts.

It’s not about having to win, which is mentioned and spoken in terms as like a deadly sin, on this forum. It’s about wanting to be competitive.

3 different Shilohs
6 National championships
1 Shooter.

Show me a Pedersoli that’s done that.

KW

[Beachmk4]

What is the OAL of the cartridges you load? I'm a bit confused as to how long the loads can be for the Pedersoli Sharps 45-70.

[GregLaROCHE]

Not all import guns are the same. There are some real dogs being being sold. Over here in France, the top competitors really like Pedersoli. I almost bought a 45/110 from them, but decided to get a flintlock instead. I’m on a supposedly three month waiting list. The reason I didn’t buy the 45/110 is because there’s nowhere near to where I live, that I can shoot long distance. The smooth bore flintlock will keep me entertained at 50 meters all day long.

Here is a Pedersoli factory tour. It’s over ten years old and I am sure they have introduced a lot of CNC today.

https://youtu.be/eOo-muzMRp0

[RSAPD]

What is the OAL of the cartridges you load? I'm a bit confused as to how long the loads can be for the Pedersoli Sharps 45-70.

With the 520gr .460 bullet I use, I calculated an OAL of 2.87 for my rifle and that is .01 from the lands.

[RSAPD]

Considering what you've done with such a "bottom feeder" Sharps, it sure looks to me like you've "arrived". And that's considering the ammo you've loaded and how ya put it all together, not exactly "BPCR kosher" as some might think. Lotta Shiloh and C.Sharps owners couldn't do what you claim to have done at those distances. Just sayin'. Your amalgam of shooter, load, and rifle simply works, for you. In the long run, you pays yer money and you use what ya got. You've done well, no matter what anyone sez. That you would do better with a Shiloh is speculative conjecture.

Yep, the price tag on Pedersoli BPCR (and other) guns has risen quite significantly, and some aren't so easy to find in stock. Purchase time is the other factor. In the case of Shiloh, it could be years before they want the rest of your down payment so they can ship yer gun. Just sayin'.

Thanks for the encouragement. I don't know if I've arrived since I definitely need to prove to myself I can be consistent and get out to the longer ranges. My range is limited to 500m and I was able to hit steel. There is BPCR group and range about 3 hours from me and the matches start in April, so I'm hoping to be ready to see if I can at least perform respectably. I'm just looking to learn and have fun with what I have and I feel fortunate my eyes are still great for distance. I find this hobby fun and challenging but I still have a busy full time job and anything more is for consideration in the future. I'm just glad there are guys like you all to share your knowledge and make the learning curve a little easier. If I am able to dive more into this at a later date, I'll definitely consider a Shilo of some configuration. I certainly enjoy this BP longer range discipline but I have several rifles of all types I like to shoot and not much of a handgun guy but I do practice with them. I'd like to start practicing more off-hand as I have been focusing on benchrest and sticks.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Are you sure? The taper should be from breech to muzzle not the other way around.

My bad, you are quite correct!

[indian joe]

Not with a Pedersoli chamber he won’t. Has to go to a .460 bullet to fit the fired cases, that then gets swagged down in that barrel. They go to great efforts in securing barrel steel from Germany then Broach rifle it. Only to muck up the chamber.

None of you guys are touching on the cold hard fact that Pedersoli chambers are on the generous side size wise. Which isn’t conducive of best accuracy.

Except for their 45-110 chambering. That chamber reamer was developed off 3 dummy cartridges, from a 45-110 Shiloh. I give you 3 guesses, an intermediary approached a fella out of Wyoming for those 3 dummy rounds. At least they got that one right.

That particular rifle has won two Creedmoor scope Class National championships. Has the world record for PP group and was the first BPCR to hit the one mile target, and holds the record for score in a single relay 8/10 hits at 1 mile.


Wondering and postulating replies still don’t refute the cold hard facts.

It’s not about having to win, which is mentioned and spoken in terms as like a deadly sin, on this forum. It’s about wanting to be competitive.

3 different Shilohs
6 National championships
1 Shooter.

Show me a Pedersoli that’s done that.

KW

kenny
Hope you didnt think this ""I reckon them pesky facts sez more about the mental of the blokes at the top of the board "" was meant in a disparaging way - heck no!!!

For me (and many others too I think) a focus on winning is counterproductive - the bloke I need to beat stares back at me from the bathroom mirror every morning whenever i get him sorted a share of wins will come. Its about doing the absolute best we can on the day.

I shot a 38 from 50 in a 500 yard prone a few years back with my little marcheno carbine, knew I messed a couple up and shoulda been low 40's (50 won it so there was no chance of a medal but .......) I was givin myself a talkin to as I left the line - not angry cussin - just wake up old feller ya wasted a couple there. Range officer as I wander past sez "what ya complainin about - ya shootin a four hundred dollar gun - you the only bloke on the line not usin a sling and shootin jacket (all shot prone) - 38 not so bad eh? - yeah but I spilt a couple - not payin attention properly!.

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=Kenny Wasserburger;5534176]Not with a Pedersoli chamber he won’t. Has to go to a .460 bullet to fit the fired cases, that then gets swagged down in that barrel. They go to great efforts in securing barrel steel from Germany then Broach rifle it. Only to muck up the chamber.

None of you guys are touching on the cold hard fact that Pedersoli chambers are on the generous side size wise. Which isn’t conducive of best accuracy.

ok Spend ten minutes and educate me (please)
not conducive to accuracy ?
is it the swaging down of the .460 boolit ?
or the excess clearance of the case neck in the chamber ?
something else ?

Shooting a pedersoli barrelled uberti 1876 in 45/75 and had come to like the fat chamber because I can shoot a .460 boolit in a fired case - no neck size reqiuired and I have not needed to ream my reformed 348 w cases - neck OD of loaded rounds is .484 - (that brass is thick!!) there is about a half thou clearance (.485 is sticky and anything bigger is a no go) using a 465 grain pointy boolit custom cut by CBE - (its the Lyman 535 postel - or close anyway - minus the base band and one lube groove) single loaded of course and boolit kissing the rifling - one lube groove outside the case - 75 grains of homemade blackpowder and a 45thou HDPE wad.

This about as good as I can do with it, 5 shots at 100yards but its eyes (and date of birth) if we looked at a series of targets you see three shot clusters in the groups that says there is more to be had - getting the last bit without a scope is proly beyond my pay grade but keeps a feller trying. I shoot off a standing bench at home with left hand between forend and a bag rest. Sitting with cross sticks might be better??? but I am comfy on the high bench.

[Bent Ramrod]

The bores on Shilohs are tapered as well.

I got the Factory Tour from Bob (I think; maybe it was Kirk and Bob showed me the Foundry) a few years back, and he handed me some drilled and reamed, but as yet unrifled barrel blanks. He pointed out to me that the shadow lines were isoceles triangles from breech to muzzle, indicating a steady taper all the way along the bore.

I asked Bob (or Kirk) how he did that, and he said, “I could tell you, but then I’d have to kill you.”

Shiloh is really a fully-tooled-up custom gun shop; comparing their product with a factory doing mass production isn’t exactly fair. The Pedersolis are built to better standards of precision than most of the originals, at least, and can hold their own with any other factory product. There’s nothing standing in the way of further improvement in their products, if sufficient customer interest and complaints are noted and they can be accomplished in a cost effective manner.

In that respect, Dick Trenk’s passing was a real loss, as he seemed to be the conduit for passing American customer wishes over to the Italians. If he’d stayed with us a few more years, a Pedersoli might have won a 5-at-200 or two.

One of our National Champions shoots a Pedersoli Gibbs muzzle loader. If he could find any defects in its shooting, I would imagine that he would spring for one of Lee Shaver’s handmade versions. But he hasn’t.

I recall a time when even the Elect were complaining about and unscrewing Shiloh Sharps barrels and replacing them with Badgers and Green Mountains, and this was well into the Big Timber era, not just the notorious early Farmingdale product. But the factory quality came up and most of the replacing stopped.

I myself have started plinking away at water bottles with my Garrett Sharps carbine again. As soon as Fish&Game finishes their repairs to our Silhouette range, I have a bunch of loads to test in my Pedersoli/Cabela’s Long Range Sharps that was pooched out to .45-2.6”. Still haven’t gotten a Paper Patch load to work, and picked up several new boolit moulds to play with. I’ve kind of been missing the Fun aspect of Sharps shooting lately in the grim pursuit of better Silhouette scores. (At my age, I don’t think a National Championship is in the cards, but nobody has more Fun than I do.) The Italian clones are plenty good enough to take care of that aspect of the sport. My poor record of luring people, who have the guns and the loads, out to compete in our matches is a pretty good indication of what a rarefied, small market the Serious Competitors actually are. And will continue to be.

[Don McDowell]

Bent are we going to see you at the Desert Internional next month?
Good points made in here,after the pizzicato post contest about those nasty competition shooters started. It still boils do head out to a match, run what ya brung. See if it’s something you want to keep doing and then decide what and if any equipment upgrades need to happen.
If rifle upgrade is deemed necessary then without a doubt Shiloh is the way to go when Sharps is the rifle of choice.

[JKR]

During my high power days we used to say that Dave Tubbs could win the Nationals with a 303 British. That’s a stretch of course but the point is, it’s the shooter as much or more than the rifle. I shoot with a friend who shoots a Pedersoli Sharps. Sure as heck nothing wrong with the way that rifle shoots!
By the way, a .460 bullet will easily slide into the fired case from my Shiloh’s tight chamber.
JKR

[Kenny Wasserburger]

During my high power days we used to say that Dave Tubbs could win the Nationals with a 303 British. That’s a stretch of course but the point is, it’s the shooter as much or more than the rifle. I shoot with a friend who shoots a Pedersoli Sharps. Sure as heck nothing wrong with the way that rifle shoots!
By the way, a .460 bullet will easily slide into the fired case from my Shiloh’s tight chamber.
JKR

They sure won’t in my Shilohs. .458 is a snug slip fit. In my bull barrel rifle it’s real snug, probably .0005 neck tension.

KW

[Kenny Wasserburger]

The bores on Shilohs are tapered as well.

I got the Factory Tour from Bob (I think; maybe it was Kirk and Bob showed me the Foundry) a few years back, and he handed me some drilled and reamed, but as yet unrifled barrel blanks. He pointed out to me that the shadow lines were isoceles triangles from breech to muzzle, indicating a steady taper all the way along the bore.

I asked Bob (or Kirk) how he did that, and he said, “I could tell you, but then I’d have to kill you.”

Shiloh is really a fully-tooled-up custom gun shop; comparing their product with a factory doing mass production isn’t exactly fair. The Pedersolis are built to better standards of precision than most of the originals, at least, and can hold their own with any other factory product. There’s nothing standing in the way of further improvement in their products, if sufficient customer interest and complaints are noted and they can be accomplished in a cost effective manner.

In that respect, Dick Trenk’s passing was a real loss, as he seemed to be the conduit for passing American customer wishes over to the Italians. If he’d stayed with us a few more years, a Pedersoli might have won a 5-at-200 or two.

One of our National Champions shoots a Pedersoli Gibbs muzzle loader. If he could find any defects in its shooting, I would imagine that he would spring for one of Lee Shaver’s handmade versions. But he hasn’t.

I recall a time when even the Elect were complaining about and unscrewing Shiloh Sharps barrels and replacing them with Badgers and Green Mountains, and this was well into the Big Timber era, not just the notorious early Farmingdale product. But the factory quality came up and most of the replacing stopped.

I myself have started plinking away at water bottles with my Garrett Sharps carbine again. As soon as Fish&Game finishes their repairs to our Silhouette range, I have a bunch of loads to test in my Pedersoli/Cabela’s Long Range Sharps that was pooched out to .45-2.6”. Still haven’t gotten a Paper Patch load to work, and picked up several new boolit moulds to play with. I’ve kind of been missing the Fun aspect of Sharps shooting lately in the grim pursuit of better Silhouette scores. (At my age, I don’t think a National Championship is in the cards, but nobody has more Fun than I do.) The Italian clones are plenty good enough to take care of that aspect of the sport. My poor record of luring people, who have the guns and the loads, out to compete in our matches is a pretty good indication of what a rarefied, small market the Serious Competitors actually are. And will continue to be.

Ask that National Champion what he has done to the lock internals to the Gibbs, it’s also got a different barrel.

FYI Badger hasn’t sold a Bpcr barrel in almost 20 years. I had Shiloh barrel, after 19,800 rounds, 1994 production, was replaced under warranty, new barrel has won two Scope Creedmoor National championships, couple winter Nationals too. In 2013 won both Phoenix and Raton.

I did have a Shiloh barrel that I fought for a few years in 45-70 that had a bad spot in the barrel. It was also replaced free of charge under warranty…

Does Pedersoli do that?

As for a .460 fitting a fired case from a Shiloh, that’s a loose chamber definitely very thin wall brass. Most Shiloh chambers in 45 run .482 at the mouth my old original Shiloh ran .480 and a .458 bullet was very tight .003 neck tension.

A .460 bullet has to be swaged down when it hits the grooves, this displaces lead to the rear causing base finning, seen plenty of examples of this at the mile target.

I am speaking from personal experience and not postulating or conjecture. As of the last 16 or so years you’re going to be hard pressed to find a better barrel than a Shiloh. The internal finish from the buttoning process of a Shiloh barrel is pretty tough to beat.

As for Dick T. Damn shame he did pass away, his 5@200 match was one worth attending. It was a put up or shut up match, I won it twice. My friend from GA Jimmy the Hippster won it in the 40 cal and under, 5 times, with his Shiloh 40-65.
Unfortunately with his passing and the match scheduling it’s gone.

Pedersoli rifles, never won that match. Another one of those pesky facts. And all the group size records, won by American made Rifles. Shilohs or Doug Knoell’s home built from Drawings. I do believe it had a Douglas Barrel.

The era of replacement barrels ended shortly after the Bryan family took over Shiloh, now 32 years ago?

The Shiloh Taper is a due to the Button Rifling process.

Obviously all the Shiloh wins in Silhouette, the 5@200, Creedmoor and midrange but multiple different shooters is just an accident. Yet still no Pedersoli National Champion or a 5@200 winner.

One caveat, my one 2015 NRA midrange National championship was won with my 38-50 Shiloh, since Shiloh doesn’t make 38 caliber barrels it had a 14 twist Douglas barrel on it.

KW

[RSAPD]

Kenny, I don't see anyone challenging the supremacy of Shilos in competitions. I don't mind my thread being hijacked to discuss the differences between rifle makers but I don't see anyone here writing that Pedersoli is better than American rifles and all the winning American rifles are flukes. I think if read the comments, people are stating the pesky facts that Pedersoli makes excellent barrels and can perform in the hands of a shooter. I think the only real opinion I have read is that if more competitors used Pedersoli, we might have seen some of those rifles make it to the medal stand.

[Don McDowell]

LOL, this thing has ran pretty far off the rails already, so here goes...
What a hoot it would be if Kirk could be talked out of some rifled barrels unchambered and some muzzleloading target rifles built up on those... Problem is that would probably open up a big can of worms for Shiloh, and they have their handsfull trying to keep up with demand as it is..

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Kenny, I don't see anyone challenging the supremacy of Shilos in competitions. I don't mind my thread being hijacked to discuss the differences between rifle makers but I don't see anyone here writing that Pedersoli is better than American rifles and all the winning American rifles are flukes. I think if read the comments, people are stating the pesky facts that Pedersoli makes excellent barrels and can perform in the hands of a shooter. I think the only real opinion I have read is that if more competitors used Pedersoli, we might have seen some of those rifles make it to the medal stand.

Competition shooters will gravitate towards what shoots best and wins, it’s a natural progression, nature of the beast. And human nature to do so. The opinion you say being expressed is from folks that obviously do not compete, thinking “IF” more shooters used Pedersoli, you see them at the medal stand, unfortunately that doesn’t hold any water in the real world, that’s pure conjecture from folks that never attend national level competition. I have seen plenty of Pedersolis shooting at matches even my own matches, One truly outstanding Pedersoli I have personally shot was a John Bodine Roller in 45-90, it was very accurate, to 800 yards that was the furthest I shot it. Yet the Roller stock configuration doesn’t lend itself well to longrange shooting with all the drop in the wrist and stock.

It sounds like you have your Pedersoli working very well, that’s good groups in anyone’s book.

The only reason I responded to this thread was when Joe said that the Shiloh boys would have to take a back seat and be quiet on this thread, because of your excellent groups.

I often shoot sub MOA groups with all my Shilohs in 38 or 45 caliber. I still struggle with my 40-70 with a 14 twist barrel ordered that way from Shiloh. I am pretty close to that goal now but it took a few years.

My best PP Groups are usually under two inches at 200 yards. That Paper Patch group of 1.336 inches at 200 was my personal best with my old 45-110. That’s a world record btw, just saying. That week at Raton it was the smallest group of any submitted, grease groove or PP.

Dick Trenk, started that match up because of all the talk about group size on the old Shooter’s.com site and Dan T working on groups. The who premise of the Pedersoli 5@200 was to showcase folks proving their rifle and load’s accuracy.
Dick T also confidently informed me that this match would showcase and prove the superior quality of Pedersoli barrels in time.

Such wasn’t ever the case, he even went as far as to create 2 separate classes 40 caliber and under and over 40 caliber. I know the 40-65 Shiloh that’s won that class 5 times often runs groups around 1.6 inches.

KW

[RSAPD]

Thanks for the reply Kenny and I understand your points. Well, as for me, I am not a competitor and just wanted to share my load development results and thank all the folks here that post because it helped a ton. Again, I appreciate the encouragement and comments from an accomplished shooter such as yourself.