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Thread: 45 Cal GC ?

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy
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    45 Cal GC ?

    Got two molds coming for 454" diameter and 460" diameters boolits (45-70 & 450 BM). I plan on powder coating them.

    Are the 45cal GC one size fits all shanks? Also, which GC do you prefer?

    I plan to shoot with a suppressor and I read somewhere not to use GC as they tend/can to come off, is that an issue when seated properly, thoughts/comments?
    Last edited by TXCOONDOG; 02-11-2023 at 10:56 AM. Reason: additional question

  2. #2
    Boolit Buddy TomAM's Avatar
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    45 GCs were designed for use on both handgun and rifle.
    The standard outside diameter for 45 GCs is .460, with inside diameter of .426.

    This creates a problem for handloaders sizing to .460 or greater finished diameter. Since the checks are not swaged on tight by the sizing die they tend to fall off.

    Personally, I taper the shanks on any rifle mold ordered to produce .460 or greater. This keeps it easy to start the GC onto the shank, with a tighter fit at the top.

    Gator GCs offers a thicker check for 45 rifles to solve the problem. Some folks have told me that they get better success with the Gators after they have annealed them. Softening them like this makes the thick GC less resistant to being fully sized down for a good crimp on.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    After one test shoot, yes. If you don't seat the gas check well enough, some will fall off after they exit the muzzle.

    It also looks like they won't work right. The checks concave in, and the shoulder of the check loses structure and strength. On the checks that fall off, you can't see good rifling marks.

    And fitting a gas check properly requires close tolerances that are pretty much automatic when using bullets designed for it. When using PB checks, now you have difference sizes of bullets, too. I'm about to post some pics of one solution, on another thread. Made a new base-sizer die.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by TXCOONDOG View Post
    Got two molds coming for 454" diameter and 460" diameters boolits (45-70 & 450 BM). I plan on powder coating them.

    Are the 45cal GC one size fits all shanks? Also, which GC do you prefer?

    I plan to shoot with a suppressor and I read somewhere not to use GC as they tend/can to come off, is that an issue when seated properly, thoughts/comments?
    Use Hornady crimp on GCs. Use a GC seater to seat them properly before sizing/crimping. I shoot GC'd 45 cal cast bullet in the 45 ACP cartridge through my 45 cal suppressor [used on both a M1911 and M98 rifle] w/o any loss of the GC on muzzle exit or duration of bullet flight.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  5. #5
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    I bought the Noe GC seater and GC expanders. I powder coated my (30 cal) casts, seat the Hornady GC with tool, and sized using Lee sizing die.

    I have Hornady GC's for the 30 cal. I bought .454 and .458 gator GC from Sage... will I have any issues with the gators?

  6. #6
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    A lot will depend on the hardness of your bullets and how you plan to put the checks on. The hardness matters because the thickness of your Sage litho plate checks is at minimum 8 thous and possible a thous or two thicker, and that displaces some of your bullet. The harder the bullet, the more the displaced lead wants to grow out in a raised ring around the base of the bullet, pushing the gas check away from flush.

    I suggest you measure the length of your bullet before checking. If the length of my 40 bullets grow by more than the thickness of the check plus maybe 25 thous max, I redo them. They will cling on and visually look fine up to +60, so I check with calipers.

    Lubrisizer is supposedly the best way to apply PB checks nice and flat and flush.

    If you use a Lee/Noe push thru sizer, base-first is probably best, but your checks might end up a little domed with an air pocket on the botton. A lubrisizer keeps the back of the check flat. The dome isn't really a problem. It will flatten out when you shoot it. But it makes it harder to tell if the check is on straight. The air under the dome is why I allow for up to +25 when I seat the checks with my Lee die.

    The sides of the check seem to be the important bit. You want the sides of the check to have solid bullet underneath. The checks that fall off are the ones that are barely clinging. They not only fall off, but they crush inwards, and the recovered separated checks don't have rifling marks in them, so they're not sealing.

    If you get a crunch and/or tearing or tilting as you push the bullet through the sizer, you may want to sand/file out the mouth of the die. Lee dies have a bit of a sharp ledge in the mouth.

    Make sure the bullet is set straight on the stem before you start raising the ram. If it starts crooked you can't straighten it. The check will be stuck crooked in the mouth of the die, even if you back the bullet out. And it will go on crooked. A 3/8 rod or dowel might be handy to push any crookedly started checks out of the die.

    Lubrisizer is the way to go. To get some of the benefits of a lubrisizer, you can push on the bullet with a dowel as you push thru size it, but then you have to get the bullet out before you do the next one, and it's a pain to take the die out or push the bullet out with a thin stick. If you just push on the stack of bullets, the nose of the bullet will dent the back of the check on the next bullet pretty bad.
    Last edited by gloob; 02-16-2023 at 02:19 PM.

  7. #7
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    To answer your first question. No 45 gas checks are not one size fits all. You will not know what you need until after you cast some bullets and try them. Most all my pistol molds take the standard Hornady type check. Some of my rifle molds like the same checks, but other rifle molds work better with the larger checks that Sage sells. Your mold will let you know.
    To answer your second question. I like which ever one fits the bullet I am using best. Good luck.
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  8. #8
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    Up to this point, I've shot plain base PC'd (no GC) boolits (pistol) and just started messing with GC designs (all rifle). The 30 cal bullets are 50/50 COWW & Soft lead and after two weeks they test at 10 BHN. The 45 cal that I will cast tomorrow will be Lyman 2 (90% PB, 5% SB & 5% tin).

    The info is helpful so thanks.

    PS: Forgot to mention; that most of my problems with seating the GC on the 30 cal (Lee 309-170) was after I powder coated them which I assume was because the coating added thickness, and/or not uniformity. I got to figure out how to prevent the coating from getting on the base or a quick way to remove it after baking, etc. (learning curve).
    Last edited by TXCOONDOG; 02-16-2023 at 06:01 PM.

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    When I first start using a new mold I'll take one bullet as cast, and another powder coated, and see which one the gas check seats on best. If the gas check is a loose fit on the bare bullet, I'll powder coat batches of bullets from that mold before installing the gas checks. If the bullet shank gets too fat from powder coating for the check to snap on easily, I'll seat all the checks onto as cast bullets from that mold, then powder coat them afterwards. Sometimes things take extra steps, but those steps can make some really good bullets.

  10. #10
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    There are lots of ways to do it. But it seems like everything about cast bullets are shades of grey.

    You can have bullets too soft or hard for a caliber-load combo and still be ok, to some degree. So some people might make all their bullets the same hardness, even in very different cartridges. Some use Lyman #2 for everything. Some use straight WW or range scrap for everything. Some water drop all their bullets, or none. I think if you really optimized, you'd use different alloys for different calibers. You'd water drop some bullets, but not all of them.

    It might make no difference for a given load if you put the check on before or after PC. But I suspect if you were really trying to optimize a fast caliber for max velocity, it might make a difference if you put them on before or after PC'ing. All of the traditional gas check materials (copper, aluminum, zinc) have high thermal conductivity. If this is an important attribute, it should be better to put the check onto the bare bullet, then PC (a thermal insulator) over it.

    There are plenty of factors though. Maybe it turns out that the opposite is better!

  11. #11
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    The molds ordered are designed for GC's. However, I'm curious to know if a GC will work on plain base casts or is it best to use molds designed for a GC?

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    Normal gas checks for 45 cal are 17 thousandths thick and the inside diameter is only 428. There's no way you're going to get a normal gas check onto a PB 45 caliber bullet very consistently without some custom tooling and extra steps.

    Checks made specifically for PB 45 caliber bullets can be used. They're going to be thinner than normal 45 checks and might go on easy for you. And they might work as good for your loads. Maybe not. Availability might also be an issue. You probably have to ask Sage's for those and do a little waiting, if you want to buy premade PB checks in 45.

  13. #13
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    Thanks to all as you have shortened the learning curve.

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    Here is a wild question for the group. I've got a 44 cal mold with a grossly mis-cut GC shank that I have been trying to figure out what to do with it. The shank measures 419. I've been wondering if a GC for the 45acp would crimp on this big pig. Anyone ever try anything like this?

  15. #15
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    I appreciate the help. I found that I can seat the Hornady GC, size and lube with 45-45-10. I also can first powder coat, bake, Use Sage GC, size and then add a second powder coat and size again. Both worked great and even when I did the smash test, the GC's stayed on and flatted into the booilt (basically the lead formed around them).
    Last edited by TXCOONDOG; 03-07-2023 at 05:14 PM.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iowa Fox View Post
    Here is a wild question for the group. I've got a 44 cal mold with a grossly mis-cut GC shank that I have been trying to figure out what to do with it. The shank measures 419. I've been wondering if a GC for the 45acp would crimp on this big pig. Anyone ever try anything like this?
    The 45 Cal Hornady GC will accept a base of .423 and the Sage 45 Cal will accept a base of .426

  17. #17
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    re: Iowa Fox

    I think any normal gas check will end up displacing too much lead for that bullet. (430-419)/2 is only a 5.5 thous rebate. Seems like you want the check to displace somewhere between 3 and 5 thous, for the checks to consistently crimp on straight and flush, so that would mean you need a check that is maybe only 7.5-10.5 thous thick, in addition to being the correct initial size.

    Folks have found many ways to put a shank onto a bullet. Bullet collet pullers. Forstner trimmer case holding collet. Sticking the bullet into a lathe and turning down a shank.

    If you saw the other thread, I've had success squeezing a gas check shank onto the base of bullets, just forcing them through a simple die made by drilling a hole into a plate of steel. But I've only had to reduce the size by 12 thous or so. 419 to 402 is 17 thous. Might be a challenge.

  18. #18
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    Will a GC work for a 230-grain, soft-lead, bullet for a .45 ACP load? This would make a superb self-defense load without resorting to chamber-bulging, "blue whistlers". I believe that such an arrangement with an almost 100% lead bullet, traveling at, or about, 940 fps would yield about 451 foot-pounds of energy. This load would likely flatten as it strikes bone and tear the living daylights out of any body part in its path.

    This isn't a bad idea, is it?
    "Faster than a speeding insult, more powerful than an ulterior motive, able to leap to conclusions in a single bound... it's Captain Obvious!
    "Living well is the best revenge" - George Herbert.
    "Fast is fine, but accuracy is final". - Wyatt Earp

  19. #19
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    Gas Checks aren't really necessary on a 45 acp. The velocity and pressure are so low that for cast loads an ordinary plain based bullet will work best in that particular cartridge. As a side note: most concealed carry and personal defense instructors (at least the ones I've seen) highly recommend that you use factory made ammunition if you intend to carry for personal defense. The reason being is that in the unfortunate event that you have to protect yourself, the attorney representing the guy you shot (or his dependents if he's taking a dirt nap) will argue that you specifically manufactured your own ammunition with the intent of making it more lethal. So, actually, yes, this is a bad idea.

    Use cast loads to practice and become proficient. Even though hand loaded cast bullets could be very effective, to protect yourself from litigation should you be involved in a self defense situation, it's probably best if you use factory ammo in your carry firearm.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by 405grain View Post
    Gas Checks aren't really necessary on a 45 acp. The velocity and pressure are so low that for cast loads an ordinary plain based bullet will work best in that particular cartridge. As a side note: most concealed carry and personal defense instructors (at least the ones I've seen) highly recommend that you use factory made ammunition if you intend to carry for personal defense. The reason being is that in the unfortunate event that you have to protect yourself, the attorney representing the guy you shot (or his dependents if he's taking a dirt nap) will argue that you specifically manufactured your own ammunition with the intent of making it more lethal. So, actually, yes, this is a bad idea.

    Use cast loads to practice and become proficient. Even though hand loaded cast bullets could be very effective, to protect yourself from litigation should you be involved in a self defense situation, it's probably best if you use factory ammo in your carry firearm.
    I am familiar with the old "he was loading ammunition that is specifically designed to kill" rubric. This is pure fearmongering patois, and most people realize this. The idea of running a soft-lead bullet at a sufficiently high velocity would be to permit mushrooming of said soft-lead bullet. this avoids overpenetration, yet dumps the energy in the target.

    The RNL bullet doesn't "look" more lethal. It beats shooting ball ammunition, resulting in a merry chase for the bullet in order to preserve evidence.
    "Faster than a speeding insult, more powerful than an ulterior motive, able to leap to conclusions in a single bound... it's Captain Obvious!
    "Living well is the best revenge" - George Herbert.
    "Fast is fine, but accuracy is final". - Wyatt Earp

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check