How can I tell it's a hot load?

[Bull]

I feel this in my bones... I can remember my younger days of 300m target hits at the Rifle Qual in the Army. That 300m target didn't stand a chance. Or shooting 1" groups in a 4" K frame at 25yds with fixed "old school" sights. And now I need glasses to read street signs. Best advice I wish I would have listened to is to enjoy what I have while I have it. Because none of it lasts forever.

Same with me. 300m were easy shot 39 out of 40 my first time on the Army range. Hit all 40 but fast Freddie was already going down so it did not count. Now it is difficult just trying to decide to sight in with glasses or not. Always liked iron sights now I have to experiment with other options. Bought a new pistol tried to sight it in always hit the target, but I could not get a tight group at all. But will try again.

[jdgabbard]

Same with me. 300m were easy shot 39 out of 40 my first time on the Army range. Hit all 40 but fast Freddie was already going down so it did not count. Now it is difficult just trying to decide to sight in with glasses or not. Always liked iron sights now I have to experiment with other options. Bought a new pistol tried to sight it in always hit the target, but I could not get a tight group at all. But will try again.

Same here, I always preferred Irons. I'm slowly having to either replace irons with high visibility sights, switch to optics, or buy new guns which have better sights. But good to see I'm not the only Oklahoman with these problems.

[dearslayer]

Ok to clarify I started with 4.0 hrs of Win 231 because that is what I was using for a similar load. I don't remember off hand what it was ( would have to check my notes in the basement ) but without being real experienced I didn't realize that I had to seat these boolits that much more to pass the plunk test. I only trialed 10 rounds because I suspicious. I figured that seating that much more might cause some issues. Normally I shoot at my club one evening a week ( ODPL STYLE ) and I use a Campro 124 gr copper plated bullet with CFEpistol. Again I forget the grains used and would have to check my note book but because the Canik Rival has to be seated deeper than my shadow I knew that if I changed power and boolit to use the cast boolit I would have to figure out a load. The reason I wanted to switch to Win231 is because I simply have more of it and the same goes for the cast boolits as opposed to the store bought copper plated bullets.
As soon as I fired the first round with the Win231 last week I knew that the charge might be a bit much because the load I'm using for the CFE is far gentler. It was a big difference. I will have to work up as suggested. I'll start around 3grs and go up from there to see what works.

So much info on here from you guys that I realize now that I should have reached out here in the first place. Thanks so much to all for the information. It's awesome.

[dearslayer]

dearslayer: You mentioned that your using a bullet that's designed for powdercoating (no lube grooves). You also mentioned that the powder coating that you're using is going on a little thick, and you're having to seat the bullets deeper so that they will chamber properly. The first thing that popped into my mind is: what diameter are you sizing the bullets to? The nose shape of the bullet may require that the bullet be deep seated no matter what the sized diameter is; but if you're powder coating the bullets as cast and not sizing them it might be what's causing the chambering problems.

They are sized to .356 after powder coating.

[dearslayer]

Where, at least approximately, are you located? Might be a member near you that would let you use his/her chronograph. I'm in the OKC metro area, for example. I have my own chronograph because one of the other members here had one that was malfunctioning, and gave it to me to play with. I was able to get it working again. If you're near the Oklahoma City area, I'd be happy to lend it to you.

Bill

Thanks for that offer but I'm a long way away. I'm in Ontario Canada.

[gloob]

You should see an increase in pressure and velocity after shortening them, true. And if you feel a big difference in recoil, between otherwise similar pistols, you might need to back down the load for safety reasons.

While you had a chance of recovering those 10 empty cases, you could have looked at the rims for extractor marks. When extraction starts to get sticky, the slide grabs the case at 50 mph, but the case doesn't let go. So the slide pulls the entire gun a bit more, instead of just the empty case, and you can feel a sharp increase in felt recoil. This is sometimes the first reliable sign of overcharge, depending on the gun of course.

I've yet to see anything going on with primers. I have experienced sticky extraction and chewed up case rims. The recoil was harsh in that particular gun. Nothing too special in the one where it didn't cause this problem.

[dearslayer]

I feel this in my bones... I can remember my younger days of 300m target hits at the Rifle Qual in the Army. That 300m target didn't stand a chance. Or shooting 1" groups in a 4" K frame at 25yds with fixed "old school" sights. And now I need glasses to read street signs. Best advice I wish I would have listened to is to enjoy what I have while I have it. Because none of it lasts forever.

Oh boy do I feel the same. Whoever came up with the term golden years must have known something that I don't. My old eyes are not what they use to be and the aches and pains just get worst.

[dearslayer]

You should see an increase in pressure and velocity after shortening them, true. And if you feel a big difference in recoil, between otherwise similar pistols, you might need to back down the load for safety reasons.

While you had a chance of recovering those 10 empty cases, you could have looked at the rims for extractor marks. When extraction starts to get sticky, the slide grabs the case at 50 mph, but the case doesn't let go. So the slide pulls the entire gun a bit more, instead of just the empty case, and you can feel a sharp increase in felt recoil. This is sometimes the first reliable sign of overcharge, depending on the gun of course.

I've yet to see anything going on with primers. I have experienced sticky extraction and chewed up case rims.

Unfortunately I had picked up some 9mm range brass that morning and realized after the fact that I had thrown in my own empty cases so I couldn't check them. Normally I keep my cases separate just to check but i had just finished the night shift and that can definitely fog my brain.

[racepres]

if you understand what the chrono is telling you, it can keep you out of trouble.

Or... Ignore all that and Simply Go By The Book... I would never be without my Chronograph.. But, i may be Guilty of having a WildCat or Three!!!

[fredj338]

Oh boy do I feel the same. Whoever came up with the term golden years must have known something that I don't. My old eyes are not what they use to be and the aches and pains just get worst.

Again, where did you get your starting data? Powders are not interchangeable. CFE is NOT w231, not even close, 231 is way faster. That is why the load is hot, nothing really to do with seating depth.

[fredj338]

Or... Ignore all that and Simply Go By The Book... I would never be without my Chronograph.. But, i may be Guilty of having a WildCat or Three!!!

The issue with book data is few of us follow the data exactly. Bullets arent plug & play, case volumes vary, even primers can cause issues. So the chrono & understanding how to use the data, very useful in keeping one out of trouble.
I also load for several wildcats & obscure cartridges. With no or few data points, a chrono is pretty much a must to develop loads safely.

[dearslayer]

Again, where did you get your starting data? Powders are not interchangeable. CFE is NOT w231, not even close, 231 is way faster. That is why the load is hot, nothing really to do with seating depth.

I believe I got it from my old book of notes whereby I used 4gr of 231 for a 138gr HP in my CZ Shadow with an OAL of 1.110 but in the Canik I had to seat them much deeper to pass the plunk test. Seems that the Throat in the Canik is much shallower if that makes sense. I'm still learning. At any rate I won't be using 4gr anymore. I'll start at 3.2 and see how it goes. If I use data for a Campro Copper plated 147gr RN which is min 3.2 and a max of 3.7 would that be ok. Can the same data be used for cast versus copper plated or no?

[fredj338]

I believe I got it from my old book of notes whereby I used 4gr of 231 for a 138gr HP in my CZ Shadow with an OAL of 1.110 but in the Canik I had to seat them much deeper to pass the plunk test. Seems that the Throat in the Canik is much shallower if that makes sense. I'm still learning. At any rate I won't be using 4gr anymore. I'll start at 3.2 and see how it goes. If I use data for a Campro Copper plated 147gr RN which is min 3.2 and a max of 3.7 would that be ok. Can the same data be used for cast versus copper plated or no?

If 3.7gr is max with plated, it will be max with lead. Three load levels, lead, plated & jacketed, all give diff results. Bullets seldom are plug & play. Starting at max is a good way to kb a gun.

[dearslayer]

If 3.7gr is max with plated, it will be max with lead. Three load levels, lead, plated & jacketed, all give diff results. Bullets seldom are plug & play. Starting at max is a good way to kb a gun.

Dually noted. I'll do a few rounds at 3.2 and see how it works.

[Kosh75287]

There IS one indicator that I didn't see discussed yet, which is hardly precise, but it may be better than nothing. You can use slide velocity as AN indicator of over-pressure. Since the means whereby slide velocity is directly measured is likely as elaborate and arcane as measuring chamber pressure, an indirect indicator of it is the distance that the spent cases are ejected. The rationale is that higher chamber pressure engenders higher slide velocity, which results in the cases being ejected a greater distance.
This can be "standardized" somewhat by firing 10 - 12 rounds of factory ammunition from a bench, and noting the average distance that the brass are ejected. Using completely made up numbers, if factory rounds are thrown 8 + 1 ft., and the reloads are being thrown 10 + 1 ft., it's reasonable to conclude that the reload is hotter than factory fodder, and dropping the charge weight 0.1 - 0.2 gr. might be a good idea.
Now, if the reloads do not eject as far as factory rounds, it is no guarantee that they are not over pressure, but it's the way I'D bet. It is certainly possible for a reload to develop higher pressures without a significant increase in velocity. It is far less likely that higher chamber pressure will NOT result in higher slide velocity and greater ejection distances. This, AND velocity from a chronograph MAY keep you out of trouble.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

There IS one indicator that I didn't see discussed yet, which is hardly precise, but it may be better than nothing. You can use slide velocity as AN indicator of over-pressure. Since the means whereby slide velocity is directly measured is likely as elaborate and arcane as measuring chamber pressure, an indirect indicator of it is the distance that the spent cases are ejected. The rationale is that higher chamber pressure engenders higher slide velocity, which results in the cases being ejected a greater distance.
This can be "standardized" somewhat by firing 10 - 12 rounds of factory ammunition from a bench, and noting the average distance that the brass are ejected. Using completely made up numbers, if factory rounds are thrown 8 + 1 ft., and the reloads are being thrown 10 + 1 ft., it's reasonable to conclude that the reload is hotter than factory fodder, and dropping the charge weight 0.1 - 0.2 gr. might be a good idea.
Now, if the reloads do not eject as far as factory rounds, it is no guarantee that they are not over pressure, but it's the way I'D bet. It is certainly possible for a reload to develop higher pressures without a significant increase in velocity. It is far less likely that higher chamber pressure will NOT result in higher slide velocity and greater ejection distances. This, AND velocity from a chronograph MAY keep you out of trouble.

I kinda mentioned it in post 19, but you took the subject into much better detail than my little anecdote.

[Kosh75287]

Thanks, JonB, I stand corrected. It's entirely possible that I got the idea to chime in from reading your post, and my brain did not give you proper credit. It sometimes misses things, these days.

[dearslayer]

Well I loaded a few rounds with 3.2 grs of Win231 and it shoots much better. Less felt recoil ( by quite a bit actually ) and it appears to be fairly accurate. Groups were smaller than before. I forgot to take photos. I think I'll stick with the 3.2 for a couple of range sessions and go from there. It's difficult to gauge how any loaded round is doing just in one range trip for me anyway because I'm always coming off night shift and being tired doesn't help. I work steady nights and it's my best opportunity to go.

[dearslayer]

Well I've been using 3.2 for this load since my last post and it's been very good. Now for my next question... A hollow point bullet dropped from the same mold is about five grains difference in weight. Should I adjust my powder charge accordingly or will five grains lighter make a big difference? The hollow points are 138 grains and the solid flat tops that I've been using are 143 grains.

[BC17A]

That weight difference is negligible so your 3.2gn load would work fine.