How can I tell it's a hot load?

[dearslayer]

Ok so I'm trying to come up with a plinking 9mm load for my Canik Darkside. It seems that loads for my Shadow1 are too long for the Canik by quite a bit. I have cast 143gr No Lube Groove boolits and the powder coating actually went on a little thick. I'm using Win231 powder and I started with 4gr but because I have to seat them to 1.055- 1.06 as opposed to around 1.10 for the Shadow to get them to past the plunk test it feels like the load has a bit too much recoil. Is it because they are seated so much more deeper? Does anyone have data for this particular boolit with Win231?

[44Blam]

By shortening the OAL, you are decreasing available volume in the case. So you need to reduce the powder charge to avoid over pressure. Even if you don't see pressure signs in the case/primer, the thing that will tell you if you are over pressure is a chronograph. Probably best to chrono out of the firearm that will chamber both cartridges.

[WRideout]

i was having trouble with feeding in my hi point 9mm, truncated cone lyman 356402. my load of 4.3 gr promo had been good in every respect, until i seated the boolits deeper to improve feeding. it was not a lot of difference, but i started getting sticky extractions and all sorts of feeding problems related to cases stuck in the chamber, that wouldn't come out.

having said that, it seems to me that any time you seat boolits deeper, you should probably work up the powder charge again. i reduced mine to 4.0 gr and it now seems to function ok.

Wayne

[dearslayer]

By shortening the OAL, you are decreasing available volume in the case. So you need to reduce the powder charge to avoid over pressure. Even if you don't see pressure signs in the case/primer, the thing that will tell you if you are over pressure is a chronograph. Probably best to chrono out of the firearm that will chamber both cartridges.

Unfortunately I don't have a Chrono. I don't compete but I guess it would be a handy thing to have. Never did understand what it's all about in regards to loading. I'll have to read up on it.

[44Blam]

Unfortunately I don't have a Chrono. I don't compete but I guess it would be a handy thing to have. Never did understand what it's all about in regards to loading. I'll have to read up on it.

Most of us do not have access to equipment that will tell you what the pressure of the round in the chamber is. But a chronograph is a pretty good indicator if you apply the information from it to the known pressure/loads from the manuals. So, it really is a good investment... I personally think that it is pretty critical to have if you are pushing boolits that do not have actual data in the book especially if you are pushing those boolits fairly fast.
The example is that if the book says a 115 grain boolit will go 1100 fps and the pressure is 25,000psi with x powder and my 115 grain boolit with the same powder is going 1200 fps, it is a good possibility that my charge is producing more than 25,000 psi... I suspect that with your shortened OAL and same charge you are probably generating higher pressures than you think you are.

[jdgabbard]

By shortening the OAL, you are decreasing available volume in the case. So you need to reduce the powder charge to avoid over pressure. Even if you don't see pressure signs in the case/primer, the thing that will tell you if you are over pressure is a chronograph. Probably best to chrono out of the firearm that will chamber both cartridges.

That is not accurate at all. You're only seeing one aspect of the available data by measuring the velocity. While it can be an indicator with a given load it often doesn't hold up very well. And THE ONLY thing that will definitively tell you if you're over pressure is pressure testing equipment. I read a while back about the effects of PC'd boolits on pressure, where after testing it was determined that they had a slightly lower pressure at higher velocities. It was theorized that the slippery powder coating actually helped it glide down the bore, which prevented pressures from building up as high. Maybe this is something Larry Gibson could chime in on. But at the end of the day, using a Chronograph alone to determine if you're overpressure is not exactly a scientific approach. When combining with other indicators it might tell you whether you're approaching that red line. But there is only one sure fire way of determining if you're over pressure, and that is using the proper equipment to measure it.

As to the OP, I do not load with that bullet, or powder. However, 40-50 hundreds of an inch is fairly significant. That was the difference between impacting the rifling and not with a 9mm FMJ load I worked up using Red Dot. What I would suggest doing in this situation is start from scratch. Begin with the starting load, and work back up to the charge you settled on. It's a pain, but it's worth it unless you don't value your hands and fingers, or possible your eyes/face... There are lots of people who use unpublished loads, combinations, and even just OALs. However, they usually work each change up from the bottom unless the charge was a very mild load to begin with. In my opinion, I think 231 is fairly fast, I'd work up from the start load.

[725]

Look at a good reload manual. It may not be precise lab quality results, however, it is a good indicator as to where you are headed..

[405grain]

dearslayer: You mentioned that your using a bullet that's designed for powdercoating (no lube grooves). You also mentioned that the powder coating that you're using is going on a little thick, and you're having to seat the bullets deeper so that they will chamber properly. The first thing that popped into my mind is: what diameter are you sizing the bullets to? The nose shape of the bullet may require that the bullet be deep seated no matter what the sized diameter is; but if you're powder coating the bullets as cast and not sizing them it might be what's causing the chambering problems.

[racepres]

That is not accurate at all. You're only seeing one aspect of the available data by measuring the velocity. While it can be an indicator with a given load it often doesn't hold up very well. And THE ONLY thing that will definitively tell you if you're over pressure is pressure testing equipment. I read a while back about the effects of PC'd boolits on pressure, where after testing it was determined that they had a slightly lower pressure at higher velocities. It was theorized that the slippery powder coating actually helped it glide down the bore, which prevented pressures from building up as high. Maybe this is something Larry Gibson could chime in on. But at the end of the day, using a Chronograph alone to determine if you're overpressure is not exactly a scientific approach. When combining with other indicators it might tell you whether you're approaching that red line. But there is only one sure fire way of determining if you're over pressure, and that is using the proper equipment to measure it.

As to the OP, I do not load with that bullet, or powder. However, 40-50 hundreds of an inch is fairly significant. That was the difference between impacting the rifling and not with a 9mm FMJ load I worked up using Red Dot. What I would suggest doing in this situation is start from scratch. Begin with the starting load, and work back up to the charge you settled on. It's a pain, but it's worth it unless you don't value your hands and fingers, or possible your eyes/face... There are lots of people who use unpublished loads, combinations, and even just OALs. However, they usually work each change up from the bottom unless the charge was a very mild load to begin with. In my opinion, I think 231 is fairly fast, I'd work up from the start load.

Very Few indeed have access to Pressure testing Equipment...Most have at least access to a Chronograph!!
Simply ... If you get more FPS than Others with same Case and Boolit... you are Over the Pressure they (or the reloading manuals) are at..

[Scrounge]

Unfortunately I don't have a Chrono. I don't compete but I guess it would be a handy thing to have. Never did understand what it's all about in regards to loading. I'll have to read up on it.

Where, at least approximately, are you located? Might be a member near you that would let you use his/her chronograph. I'm in the OKC metro area, for example. I have my own chronograph because one of the other members here had one that was malfunctioning, and gave it to me to play with. I was able to get it working again. If you're near the Oklahoma City area, I'd be happy to lend it to you.

Bill

[Willie T]

That is not accurate at all. You're only seeing one aspect of the available data by measuring the velocity. While it can be an indicator with a given load it often doesn't hold up very well. And THE ONLY thing that will definitively tell you if you're over pressure is pressure testing equipment. I read a while back about the effects of PC'd boolits on pressure, where after testing it was determined that they had a slightly lower pressure at higher velocities. It was theorized that the slippery powder coating actually helped it glide down the bore, which prevented pressures from building up as high. Maybe this is something Larry Gibson could chime in on. But at the end of the day, using a Chronograph alone to determine if you're overpressure is not exactly a scientific approach. When combining with other indicators it might tell you whether you're approaching that red line. But there is only one sure fire way of determining if you're over pressure, and that is using the proper equipment to measure it.

As to the OP, I do not load with that bullet, or powder. However, 40-50 hundreds of an inch is fairly significant. That was the difference between impacting the rifling and not with a 9mm FMJ load I worked up using Red Dot. What I would suggest doing in this situation is start from scratch. Begin with the starting load, and work back up to the charge you settled on. It's a pain, but it's worth it unless you don't value your hands and fingers, or possible your eyes/face... There are lots of people who use unpublished loads, combinations, and even just OALs. However, they usually work each change up from the bottom unless the charge was a very mild load to begin with. In my opinion, I think 231 is fairly fast, I'd work up from the start load.

Velocity is a function of pressure.

Comparing velocity to published data for a similar bullet, you can extrapolate close enough to back away from the maximum and load safe ammunition. Seating deeper in 9 mm does spike pressure. If you have Lyman’s 4th cast handbook, examine the data for 9mm. You will find numerous instances where deep seated projectiles list a maximum charge that is near a starting charge in long seated projectiles. Casting our own projectiles we often work with data from similar projectiles. While not exact, a chronograph is a useful tool to ballpark where our loads fall in relation to published data for a similar projectile. Small cases like 380, 9mm, & 40 S&W are particularly pressure sensitive to seating depth. You can load them safely without data for the exact projectiles you are loading but you need to examine the charge weights as they relate to seating depth in published data for similar projectiles.
Willie

[BC17A]

Ok so I'm trying to come up with a plinking 9mm load for my Canik Darkside. It seems that loads for my Shadow1 are too long for the Canik by quite a bit. I have cast 143gr No Lube Groove boolits and the powder coating actually went on a little thick. I'm using Win231 powder and I started with 4gr but because I have to seat them to 1.055- 1.06 as opposed to around 1.10 for the Shadow to get them to past the plunk test it feels like the load has a bit too much recoil. Is it because they are seated so much more deeper? Does anyone have data for this particular boolit with Win231?

If you work with Hodgdon 147XTP data you'll be safe. They show 3.4gn max of W231. As it stands now, I'd say you are well over max pressure and likely into +P+ pressures. First, how long is your 143gn boolit? For comparison, the 147XTP is .655" long and seats approximately .300" into the case at 1.100" OAL. Do the math with your boolit to find it's seating depth then you'll know where to start.

[charlie b]

The OP mentioned he is developing loads for plinking. Given that I'd recommend starting low and then working up until the gun functions reliably. Then stop.

If you are pushing max without any instrumentation then you should stick with book loads, including bullet type and oal.

Back when I was poor I made up a momentum measuring device to test loads. I'd fire factory ammo as a reference and then measure hand loads. Not very conclusive, but, better than nothing.

And, no, measuring vel does not tell the whole story, but, at least it is something. Like the OP noticing that recoil increased. That happened to me with a load. Turned out the load was over pressure due to powder position in the case (.45Colt).

[jdgabbard]

Velocity is a function of pressure.

Comparing velocity to published data for a similar bullet, you can extrapolate close enough to back away from the maximum and load safe ammunition. Seating deeper in 9 mm does spike pressure. If you have Lyman’s 4th cast handbook, examine the data for 9mm. You will find numerous instances where deep seated projectiles list a maximum charge that is near a starting charge in long seated projectiles. Casting our own projectiles we often work with data from similar projectiles. While not exact, a chronograph is a useful tool to ballpark where our loads fall in relation to published data for a similar projectile. Small cases like 380, 9mm, & 40 S&W are particularly pressure sensitive to seating depth. You can load them safely without data for the exact projectiles you are loading but you need to examine the charge weights as they relate to seating depth in published data for similar projectiles.
Willie

While I will agree that higher pressure generally results in a higher velocity for a given bullet, this is again not 100% accurate. There are are a multitude of instances in the various reloading manuals where a lower pressure results in a higher velocity. I only have a copy of the 3rd Ed. Cast Bullet Handbook on hand here at the office. But if you flip over to the 38spl loadings you'll see that in the 358311 data the max loads for Blue Dot and 231 have listed velocities of 919fps and 906fps respectively. If you look at the pressures levels, they are 16,500psi and 16,800 respectively. Meaning that a greater velocity is achieved with a lower pressure. More goes into generating a given velocity than peak pressure. It has more to do with the pressure curve. Think of this as not only peak pressure, but pressure over time while the bullet is in the barrel. Acceleration pressure if you will...not sure if there is a better term for it. Which is something you ABSOLUTELY 100% CANNOT MEASURE WITH A CHRONOGRAPH. And the pressure curve can be influenced by the particular firearm in question as well. Such as cylinder gap, barrel diameter in relation to bullet diameter and hardness, barrel length, etc, etc...

So again, while I do agree it can be an a single data point indicator that you COULD be overpressure, it is not by any means something one should rely on. It just doesn't work like that. This is a big reason you've started to see some powders fall out of the loading manual for particular calibers/bullet combinations. New pressure testing equipment more accurately tests the pressure curves and spikes, which give us a better idea as to what combinations are safe enough for publishing, and which ones are not. I would agree sticking with published data is the best bet. And as I mentioned in my above post that the OP should carefully work up from the starting load again. And I'll even agree with you about what you say on seating depth affecting pressure levels - it does. But we also very often interchange data for given bullet weights frequently (though not really an ideal practice). Because very often the amount of bullet inside the case can be different than the one that the data is for. But we have to have somewhere to work up from. And this is why it is always suggested to start at the given starting load for a new bullet design and carefully work up to something that works safely in YOUR pistol.

We might be splitting hairs here, and I don't want to sound confrontational. But I do want to make it very clear that velocity is not how you measure pressure. It's more of a function of the pressure curve.

[fredj338]

How did you arrive at the 4gr as a starting charge? While OAL does affect pressures, you dont see much movement at 0.04" deeper but you are already over max, so it is likely affecting pressures. No grooves will increase bearing, increases pressures. Lead & jacketed load diff, but I think you are way over for W231.
A chrono is a great tool for the reloader. All things being equal, an increase in vel is an increase in pressures. So you can plot the vel, thus pressure increases doing load development. Which, btw, is NOT starting at or above the available load data.
BULLET WEIGHT
147 GR. HDY XTP
CASE
WINCHESTER
PRIMER
CCI 500, SMALL PISTOL
Starting Load Maximum Loads
Manufacturer Powder Bullet Diam. C.O.L Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure
Hodgdon HP-38 0.355" 1.100" 3.0 755 30,100 PSI 3.4 845 34,300 PSI
Winchester 231 0.355" 1.100" 3.0 755 30,100 PSI 3.4 845 34,300 PSI

[fredj338]

While I will agree that higher pressure generally results in a higher velocity for a given bullet, this is again not 100% accurate. There are are a multitude of instances in the various reloading manuals where a lower pressure results in a higher velocity. I only have a copy of the 3rd Ed. Cast Bullet Handbook on hand here at the office. But if you flip over to the 38spl loadings you'll see that in the 358311 data the max loads for Blue Dot and 231 have listed velocities of 919fps and 906fps respectively. If you look at the pressures levels, they are 16,500psi and 16,800 respectively. Meaning that a greater velocity is achieved with a lower pressure. More goes into generating a given velocity than peak pressure. It has more to do with the pressure curve. Think of this as not only peak pressure, but pressure over time while the bullet is in the barrel. Acceleration pressure if you will...not sure if there is a better term for it. Which is something you ABSOLUTELY 100% CANNOT MEASURE WITH A CHRONOGRAPH. And the pressure curve can be influenced by the particular firearm in question as well. Such as cylinder gap, barrel diameter in relation to bullet diameter and hardness, barrel length, etc, etc...

So again, while I do agree it can be an a single data point indicator that you COULD be overpressure, it is not by any means something one should rely on. It just doesn't work like that. This is a big reason you've started to see some powders fall out of the loading manual for particular calibers/bullet combinations. New pressure testing equipment more accurately tests the pressure curves and spikes, which give us a better idea as to what combinations are safe enough for publishing, and which ones are not. I would agree sticking with published data is the best bet. And as I mentioned in my above post that the OP should carefully work up from the starting load again. And I'll even agree with you about what you say on seating depth affecting pressure levels - it does. But we also very often interchange data for given bullet weights frequently (though not really an ideal practice). Because very often the amount of bullet inside the case can be different than the one that the data is for. But we have to have somewhere to work up from. And this is why it is always suggested to start at the given starting load for a new bullet design and carefully work up to something that works safely in YOUR pistol.

We might be splitting hairs here, and I don't want to sound confrontational. But I do want to make it very clear that velocity is not how you measure pressure. It's more of a function of the pressure curve.

You are pointing out a diff within std deviation of a given load, vel & pressure wise. Generally, the only way to get higher vel with less pressures is slower powders. There are points in a reloading where adding more powder may not increase vel & that is a warning sign you have reached max, & further increases risk a spike & over pressure event.
So agree, higher pressures are not a sole indicator of higher pressures but you dont get something for nothing. A chrono is very helpful when you start mixing & substituting components. Switch to a diff primer & get a significant vel increase, pressures are up. Switch a diff brand of case, vel increase, pressures are likely up. So yes, if you understand what the chrono is telling you, it can keep you out of trouble.

[dverna]

Unfortunately I don't have a Chrono. I don't compete but I guess it would be a handy thing to have. Never did understand what it's all about in regards to loading. I'll have to read up on it.

You are making plinking loads. A chronograph is not needed.

Listen to charlie b "The OP mentioned he is developing loads for plinking. Given that I'd recommend starting low and then working up until the gun functions reliably. Then stop."

People try to justify what they do (and their "tyoyus") but using a chronograph to develop plinking loads seems to be really stretching things. Then again, I have been doing this for 50+ years and had to learn to reload without one.

There is no reason to push plinkng loads to maximum and very little reason to push loads for "serious" work unless you are shooting a marginal caliber for what needs to be done. Use book data and you will be safe and effective.

If you need/want more power than a 9mm in a semi-auto, get a .40 S&W, .45 ACP or 10mm

[mdi]

Very Few indeed have access to Pressure testing Equipment...Most have at least access to a Chronograph!!
Simply ... If you get more FPS than Others with same Case and Boolit... you are Over the Pressure they (or the reloading manuals) are at..

True. If your chrony readings are higher than manual stats, it's indicative of higher pressure. Nope not as accurate as piezo electric pressure sensors, but quite suitable for the average/normal home reloader. The only other method for home reloaders to test for excess pressure is measuring case head expansion.

A chrony is a good tool for measuring velocities and quite a bit of fun too. I am not a competitive shooter (and my marksmanship is getting worse as I age!). But I run most of my handloads over the chrony and record the velocities with my load data (mine latest one cost me under $125.00 and I can read velocities on my phone). Just adds to the fun of reloading...

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

How can I tell it's a hot load?
Ok so I'm trying to come up with a plinking 9mm load for my Canik Darkside. It seems that loads for my Shadow1 are too long for the Canik by quite a bit. I have cast 143gr No Lube Groove boolits and the powder coating actually went on a little thick. I'm using Win231 powder and I started with 4gr but because I have to seat them to 1.055- 1.06 as opposed to around 1.10 for the Shadow to get them to past the plunk test it feels like the load has a bit too much recoil. Is it because they are seated so much more deeper? Does anyone have data for this particular boolit with Win231?

I start with a published starting load, if there is one.
When a semi-auto pistol cycles reliably and gives adequate accuracy, then I call it good for a plinking load.

When is it a HOT load?
Now this is kind of dependent to pistol design, but I have an anecdote.
I bought a RIA 1911 in 38 super. I decided I wanted to create a Max load. So I did a ladder test, working up from the starting load. Then at the range, I started shooting the different loads, watching for pressure signs and accuracy. I also watched for how far the brass was being thrown. Long before I seen any signs of pressure and/or heavy recoil, I noticed my brass was being launched into the next zip code. I settled on a load that kept my brass within the zip code I was standing in...which sadly was about the same power/speed as a 9mm luger Max load for that boolit, which was a factor I hoped to exceed.

[jdgabbard]

(and my marksmanship is getting worse as I age!).

I feel this in my bones... I can remember my younger days of 300m target hits at the Rifle Qual in the Army. That 300m target didn't stand a chance. Or shooting 1" groups in a 4" K frame at 25yds with fixed "old school" sights. And now I need glasses to read street signs. Best advice I wish I would have listened to is to enjoy what I have while I have it. Because none of it lasts forever.