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Thread: Need help with powder selection: 38spl MP357-125-HP

  1. #1
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    Need help with powder selection: 38spl MP357-125-HP

    I've been working up some loads with the MP Molds 357-125-HP using the Penta Pins in my 38spl revolvers. These are sized to .358" after powder coating. So far I have experience excellent accuracy from this boolit in everything I've fired it in. And decided I wanted some fairly strong loads for my SP101 and Taurus 85. So naturally, I decided to give this one a try. Having a lot of Unique on hand I decided to try this powder. The Lyman 4th Cast Handbook lists data for the Lee 125gr RNFP with Unique at 4.3gr-5.3gr. I rolled the dice and chose 5.0gr for my first load, and seating to 1.518", crimping fairly lightly into the front band. I was very surprised by the accuracy I was getting in a S&W 65 (sort of my test gun for hotter 38spl loads). Based on the data I estimate these to be in the 850-890fps range. One thing I noticed while shooting in the Model 65 was that I would occasionally get a decently sized muzzle flash. I also noticed while the rounds did have a decent recoil to them, they did not feel too overly powered.

    After this I decided to try these loads in the Ruger SP101 to see how they performed. And this is where I hit a snag, so to speak. I experience good accuracy in the Ruger. And I noticed that if anything these loads seemed comparable recoil wise to my target load of 358311 over 4.0gr Unique. Meaning, either equal to in recoil, or slightly less in recoil. Not very scientific, I know. Definitely manageable in the pistol, no problem. I also noticed in both that the primers didn't show any signs of excessive pressure, and the cases ejected freely without any issues. However, what makes me start to rethink my load is the muzzle flash from this pistol. Where I got only an occasional light muzzle flash in the Model 65, I am getting a larger bright muzzle flash in the 2" SP101. Which leads me to believe that I'm possibly not choosing the right powder for this application, as I figured that 5.0gr of Unique would have more than enough time to burn completely in the gun.

    I'd like to keep this boolit around, or above, the 900fps range. But I also don't want to be blinded in low light. It looks like the only other recommended powder that I have on hand is Bullseye. However, with the bullseye data it very quickly moves into the +P range for the same velocity. Reaching around 18000psi by the Lyman data. And while I have no problems with using that with the Model 65 or the SP101, I don't think the Taurus 85 Ultralight would handle it quite as well. So this brings me back to the drawing board, where I think I may need to rethink my powder selections for this load. I do have Red Dot, as well as a few less suitable powders such as 2400. But I think that of those Unique and BE are the best suited, as they're fast burning powders that should burn up completely in theory - though I've disliked BE in most 38spl loadings due to position sensitivity.

    That said, I've also wondered if maybe a heavier crimp into the front band would work to slow down the bullet long enough for the powder to burn completely. But I think at best this is only a partial fix, and the real solution may be to use a different powder.

    Does anyone have any thoughts on powder/crimp, or observations from their own tinkerings with this bullet they might be able to share? So far I do like the load, but I'm not looking to set my targets on fire. Though I can think of a few instances where that might be handy....
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    Find some Alliant BE-86, and do a work-up from 3.6 gr. It is very much like Unique in all respects, but it is also flash-suppressed. Using it, and a heavy crimp should certainly reduce muzzle flash, though eliminating it may not be possible.
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    Kosh, thanks for the reply, and the pointer. I've never read up on BE-86, and none of my manuals list it I do not believe. I just took a look at the Alliant website, and found they have the data for it. I will look into this, it may be the route to go. Interestingly they also list a load for Red Dot of 4.6gr Max at 1025fps. So that will be another option for me. Thanks a bunch!
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    I like Red Dot...especially in shorter barrels..the recoil may feel more "abrupt" but not objectionable...

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    Muzzle flash as a problem is over-rated, at least for civilians. If it is so dark you will be blinded by Muzzle flash, you can't see the sights or your target clearly, anyway. Therefore, why are you shooting?

    Unlike military applications, where flash suppression reduces the likelihood to return fire from hostiles, in a civilian encounter, when you start to shoot, the issue has already progressed to the point where reducing return fire by hiding the flash is not really an issue.

    But all that said, if you are concerned about flash suppression, try CFE pistol. Hodgdon shows loads from 5.2 to 6.2 grains all at standard 38 pressures for a 38 125 grain cast lead bullet. I shot up a pound of it in 38, and 327 loads with no complaints. Shooters World Auto Pistol Is supposed to be flash suppressed, as well some of the others that they make. However, powders such as Bullseye, Titegroup, 700x and others in the "fast" section of the powder chart also can have less flash than slower powders, such as Unique, Universal, AA#7, Herco, or other "slow" powders. But for "Lights, camera, action!" nothing beats a magnum load of H-110 or 296 for lighting up the night.
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    Quote Originally Posted by racepres View Post
    I like Red Dot...especially in shorter barrels..the recoil may feel more "abrupt" but not objectionable...
    I gave it a thought, as I really like it in the 9mm and keep it on hand. But I am also very cautious with Red Dot, as I have heard it likes to spike in pressure a bit more than other powders. And because of this is no longer recommended in a lot of applications by the various manuals.

    Quote Originally Posted by rintinglen View Post
    Muzzle flash as a problem is over-rated, at least for civilians. If it is so dark you will be blinded by Muzzle flash, you can't see the sights or your target clearly, anyway. Therefore, why are you shooting?

    Unlike military applications, where flash suppression reduces the likelihood to return fire from hostiles, in a civilian encounter, when you start to shoot, the issue has already progressed to the point where reducing return fire by hiding the flash is not really an issue.

    But all that said, if you are concerned about flash suppression, try CFE pistol. Hodgdon shows loads from 5.2 to 6.2 grains all at standard 38 pressures for a 38 125 grain cast lead bullet. I shot up a pound of it in 38, and 327 loads with no complaints. Shooters World Auto Pistol Is supposed to be flash suppressed, as well some of the others that they make. However, powders such as Bullseye, Titegroup, 700x and others in the "fast" section of the powder chart also can have less flash than slower powders, such as Unique, Universal, AA#7, Herco, or other "slow" powders. But for "Lights, camera, action!" nothing beats a magnum load of H-110 or 296 for lighting up the night.
    rintinglen, I'm not concerned with flagging my position with the flash, the concern when addressing military applications. My concern is loss of night vision due to the flash. I am well aware of the differences between the military and civilian concerns, I spent 8 years as an infantryman in a RSTA Squadron when I served, as well as having served as an LEO. I understand the differences very well, as I have worked in both fields. And since I am working these up as a defensive/carry load, flash is a legitimate concern when you're talking about things that go bump in the night.

    That said, I'll take a look at CFE in addition to the BE-86 listed above. As for H110, I don't use it, I actually have a pound of it sitting in the powder closet collecting dust in case I find something to use it in one day - it's been sitting there for at least 10-15 years. I tried it out once and found I liked 2400 much better than the compressed loads of H110. That said, I've also used Unique in the magnum with positive results. However, I've never experience the flash that I'm seeing with this load while using unique before. It must be something to do with the light for caliber boolit at higher pressures and/or the light roll crimp into the driving band - sort of a necessity considering this is a fairly soft alloy of 50/50+2% testing at 9bhn.
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    One way to reduce muzzle flash is to go with a faster powder trying to get closer to 100% burn. I ran Quickload with settings for a snubby and the more common powders with a calculated 100% burn were Clays, Titegroup and Red Dot.

    For Red Dot I generally use the 2005 Alliant data that you can find at: http://marvinstuart.com/firearm/Manu...20-%202005.pdf

    Note that the approach above is not likely to give you 900 fps from a snubby.

    BE-86 does say it has a flash suppressant and is probably one of the better choices for more power and low flash in a 38 SP if you can find some. CFE Pistol and Ramshot Sillhouette are supposed to be "low flash", but I did not see any specific reference to a flash suppressant.
    Last edited by P Flados; 02-04-2023 at 07:30 PM.

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    +1 for Red Dot (or PROMO). My 358242 drops at 123 gr. and is fantastic over PROMO 4.2 gr. in a 38 Spl case.
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    OR... Just train yourself to close the non-dominant eye when firing. Not a PERFECT solution, but better than nothing. You'd at least be able to see more of what's going on around you.
    I'M a big fan of Red Dot/Promo in .38 Special snubbies, also. It's one of the few propellants with which I've managed to launch a 158 gr. LSWC at 1000 f/s from a 2" barrel without nearly wrecking the revolver. The load data doesn't bear repeating here, but it works. It's been my experience that Red Dot/Promo is rather splendid in .45 ACP, the cartridge for which I originally bought an 8# jug of it, some years ago.
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    Quote Originally Posted by P Flados View Post
    One way to reduce muzzle flash is to go with a faster powder trying to get closer to 100% burn. I ran Quickload with settings for a snubby and the more common powders with a calculated 100% burn were Clays, Titegroup and Red Dot.

    For Red Dot I generally use the 2005 Alliant data that you can find at: http://marvinstuart.com/firearm/Manu...20-%202005.pdf

    Note that the approach above is not likely to give you 900 fps from a snubby.

    BE-86 does say it has a flash suppressant and is probably one of the better choices for more power and low flash in a 38 SP if you can find some. CFE Pistol and Ramshot Sillhouette are supposed to be "low flash", but I did not see any specific reference to a flash suppressant.
    Quote Originally Posted by P Flados View Post
    One way to reduce muzzle flash is to go with a faster powder trying to get closer to 100% burn. I ran Quickload with settings for a snubby and the more common powders with a calculated 100% burn were Clays, Titegroup and Red Dot.

    For Red Dot I generally use the 2005 Alliant data that you can find at: http://marvinstuart.com/firearm/Manu...20-%202005.pdf

    Note that the approach above is not likely to give you 900 fps from a snubby.

    BE-86 does say it has a flash suppressant and is probably one of the better choices for more power and low flash in a 38 SP if you can find some. CFE Pistol and Ramshot Sillhouette are supposed to be "low flash", but I did not see any specific reference to a flash suppressant.
    Thanks for the suggestions. I'm leaning towards giving Red Dot a try since I have 3-4lbs of it on hand. But if it doesn't work out I may end up giving BE-86 a try. And yes, the Alliant data is pretty handy. I have a few loads from there that I use regularly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdgabbard View Post
    I'm leaning towards giving Red Dot a try since I have 3-4lbs of it on hand.
    That amount of Red Dot goes a loooooooong way in a 38. Even if you decide you want something else for SD ammo, I would still recommend working up a near full power practice load with Red Dot.

    I burn a lot of Promo for this type of stuff. And recently I saw some more in inventory at Natchez again

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    I shot up 32 pounds of Red Dot back in the late 70's and early 80's shooting PPC, and I totally concur on its use for a practice load. I have generally found it to be more available than Bullseye, and back then, I could buy it at a local shotgun range in 8 pound caddies for just a bit more than the 4 pound Bullseye. What I like about it is that it is a little fluffier than Bullseye, so it is easier to tell at a glance if a charge looks odd. The only downside for me was that it was not quite as accurate, due to slight variances in charge weight when thrown by a measure as opposed to being weighed.

    However, the down side to the faster powders is that they generate more pressure quicker. For the OP's use, it will likely require plus P level loads to reach the velocities he is trying for.
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    Quote Originally Posted by P Flados View Post
    That amount of Red Dot goes a loooooooong way in a 38. Even if you decide you want something else for SD ammo, I would still recommend working up a near full power practice load with Red Dot.

    I burn a lot of Promo for this type of stuff. And recently I saw some more in inventory at Natchez again
    I do agree, it goes a very long way. I use 4.3gr of it under a 115gr FMJ in 9mm, which I load by the 1000s for my AR9 SBR. I've actually lost count of how many I have loaded this year to be honest with you. On a side note, I have determined I do not like it in 380acp, it didn't seem very consistent with the 358242 or the Lee 105gr SWC. At least not as consistent as BE or Unique...

    Quote Originally Posted by rintinglen View Post
    I shot up 32 pounds of Red Dot back in the late 70's and early 80's shooting PPC, and I totally concur on its use for a practice load. I have generally found it to be more available than Bullseye, and back then, I could buy it at a local shotgun range in 8 pound caddies for just a bit more than the 4 pound Bullseye. What I like about it is that it is a little fluffier than Bullseye, so it is easier to tell at a glance if a charge looks odd. The only downside for me was that it was not quite as accurate, due to slight variances in charge weight when thrown by a measure as opposed to being weighed.

    However, the down side to the faster powders is that they generate more pressure quicker. For the OP's use, it will likely require plus P level loads to reach the velocities he is trying for.
    I usually buy it by the 4lb Jug, and I do very much like it in 9mm as mentioned above, as well as in shotshells. And I too have noticed it is a "fluffy" powder. As that 4.3gr load mentioned above just gets "tamped down" by the 115gr pill. Which I'll confess has made me nervous on more occasions than I can count - fear of getting a compressed load if you will. But it seems to have enough fluff to just knock out some of the air space.

    As for BE, I totally agree with you on that. I like BE, but man I always get nervous when using it. I typically run a turret press, and it always has me slowing down to check each and every case's charge for inconsistencies, as many cases can easily hold 2-3 charges of BE. Although, it does tend to meter a little better than Unique and Red Dot in my experience. Neither of those two meter very consistently. When using the Lee Auto Disk I actually have to choose a size 1-2 sizes larger to get a charge of the approximate weight. Which I've always found unusual. However, from my conversations with others this is not uncommon when using either Unique or Red Dot. So I ended up 3D Printing a "charging die" for the Lee Perfect Powder Measure that replaces it's nozzle. It now rides above the press, and I manually charge each case on the turret - which does give me better consistency at the price of slowing down the process of loading 3-500 cases at a time.

    I don't have that problem when running 9mm or 380 through the press, as their capacity is small enough any over/under charge is readily apparent...

    As for it's use in 38spl, it does seem I could potentially get there at the upper end of standard pressure loads. But you're right, it may very well move into +P loads very quickly. I think I mentioned before that a lot of my reluctance with Red Dot over the years has been it's reported tendency to spike in pressures rather quickly.
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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check