Swedish Mauser M96 35 Whelen Project

[brasshog]

@405Grain- Thanks for the additional information

@racepres- I agree with you on the factory ammo. I intend on using the soft cast 200gr style hollow points and maybe the accurate 240gr at no where near max velocity and/or pressure. If I can find a medium velocity load that also expands a hollow point then that would be perfect but I am happy with solids. These small Florida deer wouldn't know the difference between 35 Rem or whelen when hit lol. I am not in any way trying to make this rifle into something it isn't such as a large game rifle. That is what my weatherby is for. If this was a 98K then that might be different.

As far as all of the suggestions on calibers and such for a rebarrel I do appreciate the suggestions and will consider many of these options if it comes down to it. I want to see IF this rifle is safe to fire in it's current cartridge and make changes as necessary. I do have my reservations concerning the strength of the action even though I love swedish mausers and will proceed with caution. Seeing that it has handled factory loads in the past without any issues it does give me enough reassurance that mild to medium cast loads "may" be safe in it. Again, this is a spare rifle that will not see a ton of range time and I do not have any issue shelving it until later if major changes need to be made. I intend to use my 358 win with a 1 in 12 twist for cast boolits and the occasional jwords for almost everything.

[brasshog]

@porthos- If memory serves me right the advantage that I am aware of is the caming action required to open the bolt in extreme cold weather. If it cocks on opening it may be difficult to open in well below freezing temps which is a concern if your large or dangerous game hunting in say Alaska during the winter and you need a fast second shot on a bear or moose that is coming in close. I don't have that issue here. I remember reading a few stories years back about hunters who needed that second shot and the action was froze shut due to a lube freezing and thus requiring a second firearm needing to come into play for defense. It may also be of benefit for cocking on closing if your action is dirty and the round is sticky but I don't know just how dirty it would have to be to cause an issue that would be solved with this modification.

@Larry Gibson- I don't have anything such as dies for the 35 Whelen yet. My buddy is having one built atm and he has the dies but as of yet I don't have a dog in the fight for this cartridge. I prefer 358 Win over 35 Whelen myself and already have 1600+ processed cases waiting on its arrival. Anything that needs a 35 whelen for that extra oomph to kill I can use my 300 wby on or the 378 wby that I hope to purchase later on this year for.

[ulav8r]

A 35 Whelan, 7mm Mauser, and 358 Winchester are all loaded to about the same pressure in most factory ammo and all have the same head diameter. Therefore the back pressure on the bolt will be the same on all of them and it does not matter which one is used so far as action strength goes. Fit of the action to the stock and the stock strength will matter somewhat as the recoil increases , but the action itself does not care about the recoil. What matters is how well the cartridge feeds out of the magazine, when comparing the different cartridges.

When thinking about action strength, any of the *x57 cartridges from 6x57 to 9.3x57 exert the same force on the action, same as any 06 based cartridge loaded to the same pressure. I have not researched all the 06/57 based SAAMI and CIP specs for pressure, as that would take hours or days but do not believe that many of them will be more than 15% or more than the 8x57 military loads that were commonly used by various armies over the years and I believe Mauser actions have more than a 25% safety factor, though some handle gas leakage better than others. YMMV, but it you have any doubts about the strength of any action for a given cartridge, then compare the published specs for the pressure of the cartridge the gun was designed for versus the specs for your desired cartridge.

[brasshog]

@ulav8r- Thanks for the info. I guess that the reason I am doubting it any is because of the SAAMI pressure differences between the 6.5x55 (51,000 psi) that the rifle was originally chambered in and the current chambering at 62,000 psi. That is roughly an 18% increase in pressure already from what I see at a glance on the net.

[jonp]

If you have hunted in extreme cold you most likely know the benefits of cleaning all lube out of your action and keeping the rifle outside for the duration of the hunt to avoid the lube problem.

[Uncle Grinch]

I believe you are pushing the limits of the Swedish Mauser action with the 35 Whelen, both in pressure and cartridge length. Pick a more reasonable cartridge that is suitable for this action, specifically something in the X57 family. I’ve got a Husqvarna Swede action that is chambered in 9.3x57 and it throws a real chunk of lead (286 grain cast). You can make brass from 8x57 and Hornady has dies at Grafs.

[racepres]

@ulav8r- Thanks for the info. I guess that the reason I am doubting it any is because of the SAAMI pressure differences between the 6.5x55 (51,000 psi) that the rifle was originally chambered in and the current chambering at 62,000 psi. That is roughly an 18% increase in pressure already from what I see at a glance on the net.

But...since you already have a reload Plan... Moot

Looked at it again...and from what little I see.. If (big word) If it has feed issues, setting the barrel back to X57 length...shorten your 35 Whelen Dies.. push yer shoulder back and trim... In Other words...Larry's Cartridge!!!
Least expensive, and maintain Component availability..
No Feed Issues??? Load er up and have fun!!!

[Larry Gibson]

The European MAP for the 6.5 Swede is 55,000 psi.

If by SAAMI standards U.S. ammunition companies do not load to the MAP for the cartridge. They load to a specified/advertised (a much larger +/- fps than we might guess) velocity using non cannister powder of a specific lot [usually purchased in thousands of pounds if not tons]. The pressure measurement is done to ensure the loaded cartridges will not exceed SAAMI specifications, especially the MPLM psi standard for the cartridge. If the load velocity falls within the +/- velocity specification and is under the MPLM then it is probably loaded. Thus, the actual MAP of the loaded cartridge is usually less than the SAAMI MAP.

As an example; In my own M96 6.5x55 I have pressure tested numerous different loads and have found PVI, Hornady, Winchester and Remington factory ammunition with 139/140 gr bullets run 2250 to 2450 fps out of my M36 at 36,000 to 40,000 psi. The velocity range is within the advertised velocities but with the slower burning powders used the psi is considerably lower than the SAAMI 51,000 MAP. Now had the manufacturers used a powder similar in burn rate to the Nobel powder [such as 3031 - 4895 in burn rate] with which the 6.5x55 was developed for military use the psi would have been closer to the CIP MAP of 55,000 psi.

I load 120, 129 and 140 gr jacketed SP in my M96 with slow burning powders such as AA4350, IMR 4350 and H4831SC achieving 2700 - 2900+ fps while staying in the 54,000 to 55,000 psi range. That's what I do and I'm not advocating that for anyone else. Not saying it isn't safe either because I believe, after shooting two thousand+ such loads over the last 12 years, it is quite safe in the M96.



However, the OPs M96 has what is probably an excellent Hart barrel on it chambered in 35 Whelen. Since he has said he is sticking to cast bullet loads psi's higher than 51,000 or even 55,000 psi are really not probable. Especially since he is well versed with loading the same cast bullets in his 358W rifle. He should find his 35 Whelen to be an excellent shooter and I wish him good shooting with it.

[brasshog]

Hi Larry. The Hart barrel is on my Howa 1500 action that is currently being built. The barrel on the M96 is a C.R Pedersen & Son. I apologize if I muddied the conversation talking about the 358 Win project. I have $1220 invested in the completed M96 35 Whelen project and the 358 rebarrel and coating is $1100 atm. That's not including the new wood stock, glass bedding, pillar bedding, timney trigger, scope, rings, base, and scope for the 358 win. The total cost for the 358 will be slightly over $2,000 in the end.

[racepres]

Hi Larry. The Hart barrel is on my Howa 1500 action that is currently being built. The barrel on the M96 is a C.R Pedersen & Son. I apologize if I muddied the conversation talking about the 358 Win project. I have $1220 invested in the completed M96 35 Whelen project and the 358 rebarrel and coating is $1100 atm. That's not including the new wood stock, glass bedding, pillar bedding, timney trigger, scope, rings, base, and scope for the 358 win. The total cost for the 358 will be slightly over $2,000 in the end.

C.R Pedersen & Son, was a well respected Gunsmith located in Ludington MI. Not too far at all from where I was born and raised.. Strictly High End Stuff, Custom built Firearms was a Specialty!!! I seldom was In the place... But always came out wide eyed.

[brasshog]

I had researched them a little when I received the rifle and saw that most of what little info that I found was in reference to them producing good quality stuff.

[brasshog]

This is the currently proposed load based upon the components that I have at hand at the moment. Otherwise I'll need to go hunt down some stuff. This is for the RCBS 200gr clone. Keeping the ceiling of 50K PSI just for safety reasons. I'm thinking of starting at 38.0gr and working to my proposed max of 44.0gr of IMR4198 (just because I have some). I know that many may not want to say that it is "safe" but does anyone see anything unsafe with my proposed starting load ? Thanks.

[racepres]

Don't see the Why of more than 38.0 Grains... But..The gun can handle it Me Thinks
Do you think your Boolit can perform at really High Velocity??
Edit; Look Here maybe https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...elen-and-H4198

[brasshog]

@racepres-I started with Lyman 47 data and double checked it on the program. Lyman actually had a max of 48.0+ for a 204gr lead pill (lyman #358315) at 2678 fps hence why I plugged it into the computer. I have no desire for speed in this combo. If it kills deer at say 150 yards and has decent accuracy (moa) then the velocity is moot for me. A charge of 38.0gr of IMR 4198 would give me 2142 fps and 2063 lbs of energy at roughly 33.6K psi pressure per the data. That is close to 35 Rem data and is more than enough for anything around here at a reasonable distance and would be a lot safer than a factory 35 Whelen load in this rifle. I believe that most people on here that hunt wouldn't have a problem (ethically speaking) with this bullet combo in a 35 Rem rifle for hunting. I think our hogs here weigh more than our deer lol. Thanks for the link

[racepres]

@racepres-I started with Lyman 47 data and double checked it on the program. Lyman actually had a max of 48.0+ for a 204gr lead pill (lyman #358315) at 2678 fps hence why I plugged it into the computer. I have no desire for speed in this combo. If it kills deer at say 150 yards and has decent accuracy (moa) then the velocity is moot for me. A charge of 38.0gr of IMR 4198 would give me 2142 fps and 2063 lbs of energy at roughly 33.6K psi pressure per the data. That is close to 35 Rem data and is more than enough for anything around here at a reasonable distance and would be a lot safer than a factory 35 Whelen load in this rifle. I believe that most people on here that hunt wouldn't have a problem (ethically speaking) with this bullet combo in a 35 Rem rifle for hunting. I think our hogs here weigh more than our deer lol. Thanks for the link

Having used that Boolit, in a 98 Mauser, Chambered in 35 Remington, at 2100 fps or so.. I guess I can't figger why anyone would need more...No Elephants in my part of the Rhubarb Patch!!!

[Ford SD]

I do not know how much you like recoil but that load Will KICK at top loading that you plan to try

I am shooting a 35 whelen 9-1/2 pound rifle ... but with some 158g and some 230g cast and up over 14 on the recoil scale and it starts to not be fun

the Lyman Cast # 4 list a Lyman 204g with your powder but only goes up tp 37.5g ..... @2097fps @31200psi

By the pressure etc you can go higher but do you like recoil ?

I am using reduced cast loads with dacron 60 to 80% fill ratio depending on powder ....

I like to keep fill ration High 60-70% or higher with a dacron filler

I am also using GRT

Having fun punching paper with pistol bullets in the 35 whelen

This is the currently proposed load based upon the components that I have at hand at the moment. Otherwise I'll need to go hunt down some stuff. This is for the RCBS 200gr clone. Keeping the ceiling of 50K PSI just for safety reasons. I'm thinking of starting at 38.0gr and working to my proposed max of 44.0gr of IMR4198 (just because I have some). I know that many may not want to say that it is "safe" but does anyone see anything unsafe with my proposed starting load ? Thanks.

[brasshog]

@Ford SD-I find that I like recoil less and less as I age hence why I traded off my BFR 45-70 revolver and my steel buttplate High Wall in 45-70. Those 475 gr pills kick in a revolver lol. My normal rifle is the 300 Weatherby Magnum (no compensator) in a eleven pound rifle so a heavy 35 whelen load is "lighter" in recoil for me personally. Btw this M96 rifle weighs in at 8.8 lbs. Again this is a spare rifle that won't see much range time other than a load development for hunting. The 358 win is going to be used for almost everything in the future.

[ulav8r]

Load it to suit you, but I see no need to exceed 358 Win ballistics unless hunting elk or moose at 400 yards.

[405grain]

As a general rule, you will probably get your best accuracy with cast bullets under 2000 fps. You can go faster, and by doing load development you can find the point where accuracy drops off. But, if you begin your loads at too high of a velocity, and the bullets are already past their best velocity/accuracy mark, you might be falsely lead to believe that the rifle isn't as accurate as it actually is. I generally start developing my loads at around 1850 fps, then work up from there.

If your intended shooting goals are mainly hunting, then there are some things that you should know about cast bullets. On jacketed bullets the copper jacket is many times harder than the lead core. It takes a lot more velocity to get a jacketed bullet to expand properly. Cast bullets have no jacket, so they expand properly at velocities up to 1000 fps lower than jacketed bullets. For cast hunting bullets the meplat is king. Pointy cast bullets might pencil through game without transferring lots of energy to the animal. Cast bullets with a flatter front surface will transfer more shock when it penetrates the game. This requires a good balance between trajectory, velocity, accuracy, and terminal performance when selecting a cast hunting bullet. The most important factor (IMHO) is accuracy, as getting a solid hit in the vitals has a greater effect on a successful hunt that speed or power.

Last thing: In GRT, when you click on the "magnifying glass" to look up projectiles, you will see two lists: the GRT Database, and the Users Database. If you select the Users Database, then click the "new" button, you can then enter information for cast bullets that aren't included in the GRT database. I've used this feature to load a couple of Saeco bullets into the User Database. You will need to look up or measure information like ballistic coefficient, length, seating depth, weight, etc., but you are able to add new bullets yourself.

[brasshog]

@405grain-Thanks for all of the info. I intend to eventually test my rcbs clone boolits in gel to see what's really going on. These that I have cast are soft enough to expand at a slow velocity with the large hollowpoint and perhaps get the solids, small HP, and cup points to expand at a reasonable velocity. I chose the rcbs clone for it's reputation on deer and hogs for a starting boolit. It seems to have a good balance in the meplate and ogive for the intended purpose but I may try some wider "sledgehammer" style molds in the future. The other option is the Accurate 36-240K mold if it turns out that it likes heavier projectiles. I'm still learning the GRT database stuff and appreciate the pointers on it.