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Thread: Euthanasia....

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy
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    Euthanasia....

    My wife and I "Put down" (Euthanized) our dog today.
    She was a 13 yr. old Black German Shepherd Female whose hips ultimately could not support her anymore. <sigh>
    So we called our vet, she came out and helped us, and now our dog is buried up on the hill with our other previous dogs.
    We felt that it was the humane thing to do.

    There was an old movie titled "They shoot horses don't they?"
    Relating to having to shoot a horse with an unrepairable broken leg.

    It got me thinking......

    I have a personal experience where a family member was in so much pain,....extreme pain, from cancerous tumors, that the pain meds were not helping. To escape his living hell, he took an overdose of heroin to end it all.

    So,...Euthanasia, for humans.
    I do not know the answer to this so I submit...

    Would God approve of a "saved" person who was in such misery that the person chose Euthansia?

    "Thou shalt not kill (murder)" comes to mind but does that include suicide?

    Thoughts?
    1A - 2A = -1A

  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I’m no theologian, but I cannot believe the same God that loves me would damn my soul to hell for that sin.
    ”We know they are lying, they know they are lying, they know we know they are lying, we know they know we know they are lying, yet they are still lying.” –Aleksandr Isayevich Solzhenitsyn

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  3. #3
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    Put down a lot of beloved dogs, so my prayers to you and the family. Always hard to decide when to do it.

    Good question and I agree it takes deep thought. A priest or pastor would just tell you that euthanasia is wrong and we are not allowed to off people or ourselves just because we are terminal and in pain. In general, I agree with this statement. But you can't account for every situation and God is the final judge of our intent and actions.

    Hospice in my opinion is euthanasia slowly. Someone is in major pain and dying and they give morphine until everything shuts down. So in many ways I think we already do it by keeping people comfortable with meds. Had a few folks I knew personally dying of cancer that this is exactly what happened.

    There is grace in sickness and suffering but it must be tolerable meaning it doesn't make someone mentally ill to wanting to commit suicide. Man's laws are one thing and we just try to do the best we can to uphold the dignity of the human person but ultimately, God knows the hearts of everyone and is why only he can judge. My 2 cents and how I feel. I don't claim this is the correct answer.

  4. #4
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    This is an interesting question, that I am not sure I am wise enough to truly answer. I've spent a lot of time thinking about this.

    There are quite a few nuances to all religious "rules" in my opinion, most of which have more grey area in application then when read or spoken.

    At what point does good will, or intention take over and supercede the deed? For instance, if a fireman enters a burning structure with the intent to possibly save a person who may or may not be in the building, knowing it is more than likely he will perish doing so, the general consensus is this is not suicide, it is a noble attempt to save others for which God will reward him for. The end result is the fireman making a decision to knowingly carry out actions that lead to his death. This situation can play out with "anyone" inserted in the example, i.e. teacher, soldier, doctor, school bus driver etc. The end result is a foreseeable and avoidable death that was purposely sought, however the intention is viewed as positive and not negative so we/society celebrate the deed and attempt. I find it difficult to address this question without addressing the difference in intentions. Thou shall not murder, but if your protecting yourself or loved ones against a deadly threat it is okay- so where's the line that says it's okay to protect your loved one from a terminal diagnosis or unimaginable pain?

    In my opinion, it's the intentions that I will be judged for more than the results.
    “To be yourself in a world that is constantly trying to make you something else is the greatest accomplishment.”― Ralph Waldo Emerson

  5. #5
    Boolit Grand Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    Well being raised old school, I personally put several cats of our household down. In all cases they were not outside cats. They had never been out of the house. I knew a trip to the vet would be a traumatic experience. They were all old enough that vision was going and they were having trouble with getting up and down the stairs to the liter box.

    In all cases they were loved, purring away when a .22 caliber air rifle pellet entered their brain. Lights out. Cats die hard. I would really prefer not to have to do that again. I can not imagine doing it for my wife. Yet I can see that in a few short years I could be facing that.

    As for the OP's question. Is it suicide if you just stop eating and drinking?

    In most cases suicide is selfish. Your saying your problems are so terrible that you can not face them. But your creating a bigger problem for those you love.

    I agree with Bored, intent matters. Method also matters in my opinion. I personally would not want to do something that leaves a mess for someone else to have to clean up.
    Or even driving into a bridge support at 130 mph.

    In my younger years when times were hard, I was alone and lonely a lot. 3 times I considered checking out. In all 3 cases I found someplace high I could climb. A city water tower, a radio tower, and a tower on a dam. Climb to the top. Ok, you want out, all you have to do is let go. And about that point I would see that I had both arms wrapped around something solid. Well I guess that is your answer then. And eventually I would carefully, climb back down and go back to living life. No matter how hard it was.

    Now I am 70 and I do not want to go the way my dad did. Blind, frail, unable to do anything but sit in his chair and yell at mom.
    But I know the Lord will not be happy with me if I kill myself. Forgive me in the end, yes I believe he would. But I am not sure I want to risk it.

    I had a conversation with my mother some 5 years before she passed. I told her straight out. Mom, 3 minutes without air, 3 days without water, 3 months without food.
    I think I knew the day was going to come when Dad was gone and my mom was going to want to join him.

    5 years later, dad is gone and my mother stopped eating and drinking. A week later she was gone.

    Did I give her a key through a door she wanted badly to go through? Or did I do something I should not have done?
    I know that she is with my dad and the Lord. I have flashes of guilt where I wonder if I did the right thing. But I don't think I will know for sure until I meet my maker.

    I certainly don't know the answer to this question.

    I hope the Lord calls me when I am asleep and I do not have to face it.

    Is it suicide to stop taking your blood pressure medication and pray for a massive stroke that ends your life?
    Or to just stop eating and drinking?

    For those who are in massive amounts of pain there has to be a way.
    I truly believe we need to get back to basics.

    Get right with the Lord.
    Get back to the land.
    Get back to thinking like our forefathers thought.


    May the Lord bless you and keep you. May the Lord make His face to shine upon you and be gracious unto you
    and give you His peace. Let all of the earth – all of His creation – worship and praise His name! Make His
    praise glorious!

  6. #6
    Boolit Master



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    That is a tough nut to crack! And no amount of thought will settle it! So all I can say is we must give ourselves as a living sacrifice to God and let him rule!

  7. #7
    Boolit Grand Master
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    IMO, God forgives every sin except one. And this is not the one.
    Don Verna


  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master Nobade's Avatar
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    When my dad got too bad they put him in palliative care. That is where they hook you to a morphine drip and don't give you any water until you die. He lasted two weeks after that started. Sure, we all got to go see him and talk to his unconscious body but he was still in there suffering. A huge dose of morphine or the barbiturates we just used on my cat this week would have been so much more humane. Letting someone die slowly from lack of water while kept immobile is a terrible thing to do.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master



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    I cannot even imagine beginning to speak for someone else on this matter - What i know is that sometimes the very best learning or healing comes in the last moments or most painful moments. Those moments are between me and the Lord - And I love the Lord so much that I would never want to lose those moments between me and him, Or lose the healing or learning that might be available in those moments that i can carry through into the next life without this body. Some folks do come to Christ at the LAST moment. I would not want anyone drugging me out of one single moment of this life. I deeply respect every man's decision on these complex matters
    Being human is not for sissies.

  10. #10
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    I am in a class working on end of life paperwork. If you have none the DR's will keep you alive at all costs. I believe if you choose for them to only medicate pain in that situation you will get pneumonia and pass inside of a couple of weeks if that is your intention. Does no action on your part equal a suicide? I don't believe so. When I look at the nursing home situation I really consider the choices of the old native Americans who would slip out of their tent in a snowstorm and go for a walk.
    [The Montana Gianni] Front sight and squeeze

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    In my less than knowledgeable understanding of the redemption that Jesus Christ blessed his followers with, I am given to believe that we have been forgiven of all of our sins, past, present and future.

    If suicide is a sin and you are a follower/believer in the redemptive work of Jesus Christ then, yea, you are forgiven. When you add onto that the omniscience of our God, don't you think that He would already know what would drive an individual to commit suicide in the first place.

    Arguments could easily be made against my perspectives about this topic by bringing up caveats like, divine healing but, I know an awful lot of sick Christians who are guilt-tripped on a daily basis for not having enough faith to be healed. Many are sanctimoniously ushered into an early grave by these religious gilt-trips. I also know several folks who have actually been miraculously healed and they weren't even confessing "Christians." They were just prayed for by the laying on of hands and they were healed.

    I do profess to be a Christian and I too have been healed of conditions that I was told would never go away so, what are we to think about these, being healed or not being healed possibilities?

    Before Jesus was hung on the cross and died in order that we could be redeemed, I distinctly recall reading in the Bible that (paraphrasing) they couldn't take his life. He gave it up willingly.
    As He hung on the cross, didn't he state, "Father, into your hands I submit my spirit?" He chose to die at that moment. Can this be characterized as suicide?

    I don't think it can but, I mention it because my own ignorance on this topic leads me to believe that God understands why one would do such a thing as take their own life. Still, there are so many negative nuances to this subject and when you start talking about euthanasia or, what we humans can mis-label as "Mercy Killing," in my mind this becomes a treacherously slippery slope. It brings to mind, abortion.

    HollowPoint
    Last edited by HollowPoint; 01-28-2023 at 08:28 PM.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by HollowPoint View Post
    In my less than knowledgeable understanding of the redemption that Jesus Christ blessed his followers with, I am given to believe that we have been forgiven of all of our sins, past, present and future.

    If suicide is a sin and you are a follower/believer in the redemptive work of Jesus Christ then, yea, you are forgiven.
    HollowPoint
    Amen. We - men - can get our minds in a hopeless tangle when we start trying to speak for God about our own unknowables. That should not be.

    Two things we know - or should know - about God is that he (1) measures the heart, not the deed and (2) no one has ever gone to hell for sins of the flesh, it's an unbelieving and selfish heart which rejects God and seeks sin that goes to hell. (See John 3:17)

    I once had a close friend who died from spine cancer. He literally hurt to death in daily sweat-popping pain; it took a year of agony for his racing heart to finally give out. I don't want to see that again and I don't want to see anyone's loving family watching it either. He didn't do it but I know a bit about serious pain and I probably would have.

    So, IMHO, whether suicide is a "sin" or not shouldn't be the issue to us. I won't harshly judge anyone in enough pain to choose that shortcut to the inevitable end. That determination is way above my pay grade!

    Even so, come quickly Lord Jesus!

  13. #13
    Boolit Master

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    I always figured the religious prohibition against suicide was contrived by the church/state at a time when life was generally pretty bad. You promise the taxpaying peasants paradise after they die if they behave themselves, but you need a Suicide = Hell clause in there to keep them from offing themselves when they get tired of going outside their mud hut just to plow your fields every day of their nasty, brutish, and short lives.

    For better or worse, we are certainly good, technically, at prolonging the agony. I too have witnessed the German Shepherd hips phenomenon and seen that it's possible to suffer a lot longer with outside support than you would if nature took its course and the hyaenas (or scavenger/predator of your choice) had their way with you. For the believers out there, it begs the question - which of those two paths is God's?

    On the other extreme, one of our elderly cats was diagnosed with a large bone cancer growth in her jaw. After a pain injection to let her stay home for a couple days to say our goodbyes showed signs of wearing off, we took her in for the final O.D. of barbiturates. The instant transition between "tensed look of pain" to "relaxed look of peace" as she was passing pretty well sealed my opinion on the subject.

    I'm not one for the traditional belief structures, but if it's God creating the pain, it's also God providing the pathways out of it, and the measure of that pain should determine the time to go. Whether it's from the kind hand of another, or the John Browning Assisted Departure Plan, it probably doesn't matter.
    WWJMBD?

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  14. #14
    Boolit Grand Master Harter66's Avatar
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    My Dad went from ground work on a backhoe to unable to care for himself at all in 12 days . He was sent home with a script for thorazine(sp) that was 30 pills of about 25 times a nominal dosage for a person "needing a tranquilizer" to subdue a rage . 3 days before that they had him on a med that replaced a liver hormone that could have easily give him another 3-5 yr of good life .

    I figure knowing what I know now about his conditions and my current situation I have 12-15 yr left and will likely do everything I can to hold out long enough so my Mom doesn't have to bury her only child .

    I've lost and put down a few dogs , the last with lymphoma 10 months after my Dad passed . I I can't tell you it was the hardest day of my life but it was supremely difficult to such a degree that I've decided that it's just easier to not have any more pets .

    It is obvious that modern medicine gave my Dad some choices and with particular events withheld certain options and gave him the option of "the easy way out" . He had the bottle in hand but had made his peace and passed without opening it. Most of 3 generations passed quietly to my knowledge having simply given up the fight and made their peace . In fact Moms Mom was in her last hours getting a little bit impatient with her escort having no sense of urgency at all .

    Every person should be able to decide when enough is enough, when they have fought long enough. I'm not a fan of the Kovorkian method , a body aught to be able to change their mind .

    God's law ....... Thou Shalt Not Kill seems pretty clear .
    I asked a very open minded but devote person once and over time 3 Methodist, an Episcopal, and a Pentacostal minister as well as a Mormon Bishop , "if the Commandments say thou Shalt Not Kill, what of our servicemen ?". The response was more or less from the Old Testament and fell into the Laws of Man from God under the eye for an eye and if the beast of the field gores a man unprovoked it should be rendered dead and left to rot to bones in the sun . Out of text and in context more or less if the soldier doesn't lust after death or take pleasure from it they have not sinned in the greater duty .

    Suicide is a sin . It is the conscious decision to kill for self gratification . To end ones life to end ones perceived failings, dissatisfaction, unhappiness etc fits .
    To give ones life knowingly for another's would be the true way of Christ and to a similar degree Moses and Abraham . Maybe this is where the soldier fits .

    Taking ones life knowingly when the end is emanate, the pain , real physical suffering........? I don't know . It would be a deliberate decision wouldn't it ?

    A question like this has been debated for millennia . The answer is there's only one way to find out .
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  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    I've witnessed it both ways. I had a first cousin that was like a little brother who killed the man his wife was running round with, then killed himself, I thought that nearly killed me! A little over two years ago my oldest daughter took her own life and that is still like a sword running through my heart. On the other hand, my Mother in law had a fast progression of pulmonary fibrosis, there is no cure, she lay there gasping for air and with what breath she had, begged God to take her home. The only release was in the morphine! She passed with peace and dignity. I don't pretend to know the answer to the original question, but I do know that the grace of our God is greater than all our sins!
    I'll pose a counter question though, does modern medicine interfere with God's natural plan? Is it a sin to fight off God's plan that we naturally die?

  16. #16
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    i dont pass judgment on anyone. Thats Gods job. Only he knows the answer to that question.

  17. #17
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd Smale View Post
    i dont pass judgment on anyone. Thats Gods job. Only he knows the answer to that question.
    That is certain.

    But let us not mix up euthanasia and suicide. I see them as different subjects. People commit suicide for many reasons...from dealing with awful pain, or guilt, or even being bullied on Facebook.
    Don Verna


  18. #18
    Boolit Master Wag's Avatar
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    Many years ago, I wrote a paper on this subject when I was getting my degree and my ultimate conclusion is:

    It's your life, you decide.

    If you want to live through whatever suffering you have, do it. If you want to end your suffering by ending your life, do that.

    There are those who are quadriplegic, however, or have other disabilities who can't end their own lives but if they are able to ask, a doctor should be able to assist them with meds. But there are even those who cannot ask so we can't make that decision for them.

    It begs the question as alluded to in another thread where we have to write up instructions on what our loved ones are to do if we're no longer able to ask.

    The flip side is, if you're in pain and agony but you still love your life, then live it!! Nothing wrong with that and nobody should ever make that decision for you. Otherwise, we're in a society of Megele-style killers.

    --Wag--
    "Great genius will always encounter fierce opposition from mediocre minds." --Albert Einstein.

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
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    My dad was 89 when he passed.
    He had Alzheimer's enough so that he didn't know where he was.
    He was a big man, and a problem when he got loose.
    He died of dehydration on MLK birthday
    when the help took the long weekend off.

    Will my last days be different?
    Only if I want them to be.
    A good read on the subject is "House of God" by Shem.
    Has nothing to do with God, it's the name of a hospital.

    First rule of reloading is
    "Do not shoot other people's handloads."
    What works for you might not work for me.
    The exception that proves the rule is God's Word.

    Thank you for the thread, good topic...

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by .429&H110 View Post
    My dad was 89 when he passed.
    He had Alzheimer's enough so that he didn't know where he was.
    He was a big man, and a problem when he got loose.
    He died of dehydration on MLK birthday
    when the help took the long weekend off.

    Will my last days be different?
    Only if I want them to be.
    A good read on the subject is "House of God" by Shem.
    Has nothing to do with God, it's the name of a hospital.

    First rule of reloading is
    "Do not shoot other people's handloads."
    What works for you might not work for me.
    The exception that proves the rule is God's Word.

    Thank you for the thread, good topic...
    We lost our mom a couple of years back to the same Alzheimer symptoms. She was about the same age, and she could no longer recognize any of us. She didn't know who we were or even who she was.
    Earlier, during a time when she did have sufficient wits about her, she did leave written instructions to let her expired if she were ever to find herself in a medical state of not being able to make such a decision on her own. Those documents were kept by my oldest sister.

    Perhaps for the most selfish of reasons, our sister chose to tear up those documents and throw them away. When she told us what she had done, none of her six siblings objected. This too was equally selfish but, none of us could bear the thought of allowing our mom to die, regardless of the circumstances. It didn't matter that she didn't know who we were when we'd visit her in the nursing home. She was still our mom.

    It was strange to me that she didn't know who her own kids were but, when one of my nieces or nephews would bring their small children to visit her, she never forgot what a baby was. A baby meant, family. She would always take them in her arms and love them like one would expect for a grandma to do.

    All of our prayers and all of our well-wishing didn't turn the tide. Eventually we got that phone call that kids who love their parents dread having to receive. She passed away in her sleep, according to the nursing home staff. We were glad she was free from that Alzheimer scourge but, we were enormously saddened that we had lost part of the glue that holds a family together.

    Should we have honored her wishes to let her die if she ever found herself in a circumstance where she couldn't have made such a decision on her own? It was about eight years between the time she had documented her wishes till the day she died.

    Our mom was a confessing Christian too. We'll follow along eventually so, if apologies are due, that will be the time and the place where one would imagine that apologies would take place; although, if or when we make it to Heaven, nothing about what transpired in this earthly life will really matter anymore, will it?

    HollowPoint

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