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Thread: Euthanasia....

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigslug View Post
    Rizzo, it really comes down to how deeply into the Christian dogmas you are.

    Shanghai Jack comes pretty close to my thinking on the matter - I don't see a benevolent guiding hand anywhere. Such, if it existed, wouldn't play games of "I made heaven first, and it's perfect, but I'm going to make you live through a world of suck to get there, and if you don't do it my way, I'll send you to a world of greater suck forever". That's just one human construct of many for ways in which we can choose (or force) to interact with each other.
    I have wondered that myself.
    I do believe in God but have wondered why He put us here in this Material World, having to endure all of life's experiences (pain, suffering, misery, sadness, etc., etc.) that we all go through until our ultimate end, rather than just put us in heaven with Him in the first place.
    Why did He create us in the first place?
    He was lonely?
    He needed entertainment... so He put us here to see how we do, knowing what we will have to endure?
    I do not know.
    I guess that is where Faith comes in to play.
    Faith that God knows what He is doing and in the end (after we die) we will understand the "whys".
    Your blunt "world of suck...." analogy is pretty much how it really is though. (sigh)

    And really, what is the benefit to sucking it up, or forcing someone to suck it up to beyond the limits of their endurance? Any benevolent and omnipotent critter that was going to provide a miracle healing would be aware of that limit and do so before it was reached. Ultimately the end comes, and in our final extremity, we're nothing more than a bag of organs waiting for decomposition to start, and it can hurt - a lot - before it does.
    Good points.
    Hence, the Euthanasia, (suicide) issue comes into play there also.

    I'm not about to follow an entity who claims that is necessary.
    Well, that is your choice (Free Will).
    You are acknowledging there is an Entity (God) but are somewhat denying Him. That is a Spiritualy dangerous postion to take.
    I complain to God on many issues.
    I also realize that my intellect isn't high enough to understand Spiritual matters such as these, so I sometimes begrudgingly mutter to myself "Your will Lord, not mine".

    Primitive, nomadic cultures perhaps provide some guidance here - at the point a member can't migrate, they have to be left behind for the wolves, polar bears, or hyaenas, lest they hold the tribe back to their ultimate doom. Today, we see the same in the physical, mental, and financial drain in terms of effort spent to stave off the inevitable. What good god is going to ask us to suffer to prolong suffering?

    As to mental anguish, it's less objectively obvious in how to approach than the physical, but I'd say the same general rules apply. Your limit is your limit, and if the benevolent entity isn't providing relief, deciding it's time to go is nobody's business but your own. Why would a god judge such actions harshly since it presumably knew your limit going in?
    You make some thought provoking points BigSlug.
    Thanks for your input.
    1A - 2A = -1A

  2. #62
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rizzo View Post
    Well, that is your choice (Free Will).
    You are acknowledging there is an Entity (God) but are somewhat denying Him. That is a Spiritualy dangerous position to take.
    Not particularly. The Greeks figured we were playthings of the various gods, and appeasing one might offend another. If you place no bet on any of them, you can at least hope they'll be disinterested in you when they choose to get their giggles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rizzo View Post
    I guess that is where Faith comes in to play.
    Faith that God knows what He is doing and in the end (after we die) we will understand the "whys".
    When Eisenhower had the objective of liberating Europe, he at least told his guys WHY he was putting them into Higgins boats and C-47's to risk getting blasted into giblets so they'd have a definite sense of where to go and what to do. In contrast, we don't even have a clear message of WHICH god's direction to follow, or if there actually even is any, so what, exactly, are we supposed to put our trust in? The Christian construct of suicide/euthanasia being bad is just one of many interpretations in a vast stretch of time. There are others that cast no major stigma on an attitude of "If this is the game, then I don't want to play". For all we know, the ancient Egyptians were right and we should be pickling our entrails is stylish alabaster jars. Tossing virgins into volcanoes might have greater validity than anything the Vatican has handed down. Faith is then deciding who's word you're gonna take for it, and for many, it's whatever brew they grew up pickled in. Until we get an actual booming voice from the sky, we're just going on feels.
    WWJMBD?

    In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.

  3. #63
    Boolit Grand Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HollowPoint View Post
    I don't want to sound like I'm discounting the seriousness of the original intent of the initial question about "euthanasia" but, at three pages long now it seems that this conversation has become or is becoming overly thought out or overly serious.

    I think I'm partly to blame for that.

    I should have replied with a bit more levity but, that might have been slightly offensive.

    Something like:

    In the past I've had the pleasure of traveling to various parts of our world except to those parts of the world which are considered to be parts of Asia. In those places where I have been to, I've found that the youth there all seem to be basically the same. This leads me to believe that the Youth-In-Asia would most likely be no different, other than the different languages spoken.

    HollowPoint
    When the hormones kick in, yep, young people pretty much the same everywhere.

    This video popped up on youtube and well, I was reminded of this thread and I had to come back and post. What a jam session about young people falling in love.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Hef5OXHr5I
    Last edited by Good Cheer; 02-28-2023 at 08:36 AM.

  4. #64
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    I would like to point out that God did not put us in THIS world. He created a perfect world with perfect animals and people. Man brought corruption into His creation through sin, and it's this corrupted world we have to suffer through. It's not what God put us in! It's a world mankind corrupted! The place that we think of as heaven, is getting to the original garden, with God dwelling with us. The Bible starts and ends with a tree of life in a garden!

  5. #65
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    I believe we ALL have forgotten whose Worldly domain this is right Now! Satan was cast down to this Earth before humans were created and being the fair God that He is, He gave us the power to make our own choices and our parents chose to disobey and do it our way! Have we all not done this many times! I myself did this for 66 years! It took me that long to realize that I'm NOT GOD.

  6. #66
    Boolit Master Wag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigslug View Post

    <Snip>

    Why would a god judge such actions harshly since it presumably knew your limit going in?
    Good post. Mostly follows my own line of thought on the matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rizzo View Post
    Why did He create us in the first place?

    <Snip>

    You make some thought provoking points BigSlug.
    Agreed. What would be the purpose of a creation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thundarstick View Post
    I would like to point out that God did not put us in THIS world. He created a perfect world with perfect animals and people. Man brought corruption into His creation through sin, and it's this corrupted world we have to suffer through. It's not what God put us in! It's a world mankind corrupted! The place that we think of as heaven, is getting to the original garden, with God dwelling with us. The Bible starts and ends with a tree of life in a garden!
    Quote Originally Posted by augercreek View Post
    I believe we ALL have forgotten whose Worldly domain this is right Now! Satan was cast down to this Earth before humans were created and being the fair God that He is, He gave us the power to make our own choices and our parents chose to disobey and do it our way! Have we all not done this many times! I myself did this for 66 years! It took me that long to realize that I'm NOT GOD.
    Both of these posts suggest quite thoroughly that god is an absentee landlord who created the earth, put people on it and now wanders the universe without a second thought of us here. Given the suffering we all endure, the notion is fair enough....

    In my study of several (not all, or even many) religions, one common thread among them is that they all believe they are the "one true religion of god on the earth." Most of them preach, at one level or another, that only their own adherents are going to heaven and that the rest of the entire planet of people will go to eternal suffering and that they deserve it.

    That simply doesn't sound like a loving god who loves his own children.

    I watched my wife die with extreme agony. I had ceased to try to believe in a god long before then but after seeing her disease torture her to death, I have no reason to believe that a loving god exists, particularly that as wonderful as she was in every possible way, she was one of the last people on earth to deserve such a fate.

    Better to believe no god would do such a thing.

    --Wag--
    "Great genius will always encounter fierce opposition from mediocre minds." --Albert Einstein.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundarstick View Post
    I would like to point out that God did not put us in THIS world. He created a perfect world with perfect animals and people. Man brought corruption into His creation through sin, and it's this corrupted world we have to suffer through. It's not what God put us in! It's a world mankind corrupted! The place that we think of as heaven, is getting to the original garden, with God dwelling with us. The Bible starts and ends with a tree of life in a garden!
    If one judges the quality of the engineer by how well his airplane flies, then the smoking crater that is mankind should be sufficient evidence to launch an NTSB inquiry into just what cereal box that engineering degree came out of.

    If you rate a justice system by the fallout of it's rulings - such as one chick eats a shiny red apple, and tens of billions of innocents end up paying for it - you often find yourself wondering what substances the judge was smoking (maybe THAT'S what "higher power" actually means. . .).

    As answer to the question posed in the OP, far better to reach your own conclusions and formulate your own plan for getting around - or out - than to rely on the above systems for guidance.

    Unfortunately, our flawed god's flawed humans love to meddle in each other's private affairs by thinking they know what's best for others. Gun control, electric cars, religious dogma on how to live or end your life - take your pick. When it comes to your final "exit strategy", it may be prudent to check up on what legal hurdles the meddlers have put in your path.
    WWJMBD?

    In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigslug View Post
    If one judges the quality of the engineer by how well his airplane flies, then the smoking crater that is mankind should be sufficient evidence to launch an NTSB inquiry into just what cereal box that engineering degree came out of.

    If you rate a justice system by the fallout of it's rulings - such as one chick eats a shiny red apple, and tens of billions of innocents end up paying for it - you often find yourself wondering what substances the judge was smoking (maybe THAT'S what "higher power" actually means. . .).

    As answer to the question posed in the OP, far better to reach your own conclusions and formulate your own plan for getting around - or out - than to rely on the above systems for guidance.

    Unfortunately, our flawed god's flawed humans love to meddle in each other's private affairs by thinking they know what's best for others. Gun control, electric cars, religious dogma on how to live or end your life - take your pick. When it comes to your final "exit strategy", it may be prudent to check up on what legal hurdles the meddlers have put in your path.
    Not trying to convince you of anything.

  9. #69
    Boolit Grand Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    We were put here in meat suits to make up our minds whether to love Father or not. It's not reincarnation. We get one pass through the water, then either get welcomed home or booted out. If we weren't such a bunch of screw ups He wouldn't have had to wipe this place clean (Genesis 1) and set it back up for us. He wouldn't have had to sacrifice as Jesus for us.

  10. #70
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    How easily this subject turns to the "Nature of God"!
    I do know this much:
    He is not Zeus, on a throne with thunderbolts.

    The easy, flippant answer to "why would God...?"

    is the idea that your question is His proof to you
    that you aren't God. He Is.

    If you go to your corner church on a Wednesday night
    you can respectfully ask these questions
    and get respectful answers.
    See prayers answered in fellowship.
    Or keep looking to find a church that does.
    We are not made to face this problem alone.

    So I asked the Deacon, whyever did God create Adam?
    To tend His garden.
    Ok, why did Adam eat the apple, that was Eve's idea?
    Because Adam did not want to live forever without her.
    Adam ate, knowing he was defying God and would surely die.
    Adam was the first suicide?

    I am sure God chuckles as He reads this thread.
    If you want to make God laugh, tell Him your plans.
    We are created in His image His sense of humor included.
    I am not at all making light of suffering, have had my share of pain,
    I am urging you to find fellowship, and choose the Light.

    Together, we might save America.

  11. #71
    Boolit Buddy
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    ....then there is the legal side.

    I just read an article where the wife of a husband of 50 years shot and killed him in the hospital in a planned murder-suicide plot that was planned three weeks earlier between the two of them.
    The police arrived after the husband was shot but before the wife killed herself.

    Read here:
    https://www.foxnews.com/us/florida-w...-plot-indicted

    The indictment states that Ellen Gilland knowingly shot Jerry Gilland "without lawful justification and under circumstances not constituting excusable homicide or murder."

    Not sure if she is a Christian, but can't help but think God will forgive her under these circumstances.
    Now she'll probably be in jail for the rest of her life. <sigh>
    1A - 2A = -1A

  12. #72
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    Philippians 1:21-23 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better.
    I have had christian breathren that have suffered terribly before they're passing in the past few years. A few of them were witnesses for Him right up until their last breath. While we are alive we can tell others about Christ just maybe one will come to know Him. After we are gone form this earth we will no longer have the opportunity to be used. Funny thing I can't understand why He would use a undeserving sinner like me. I pray I can have the thoughts Like the apostle Paul and choose to tell others and not focus on myself. I don't think this an easy thing to do. Maybe with the peace that passeth all understanding I can make it. Imagine Hearing "well done my faithful servant"

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by deces View Post
    If you are Catholic, you can just say 10 Hail Marys afterwards.
    Sadly, there is a lot of "truth" for Roman Catholics in that man-made doctrine but most Christians strongly disagree because nothing in our un-modified Bibles confirms it.

  14. #74
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    Was reading a modern travelogue "Walking the Bible"
    following Moses, the author went to St Catharine's monastery
    and admired the burning bush there.
    He climbed Mt Sinai, talked to everybody he met.

    The author spent the night on Mt Nebo
    while reading Deuteronomy 34

    I got to speculating:
    old man Moses, 120 years old
    spent the desert night at 2600 feet altitude in the wind
    alone with God, and died.
    Apparently God buried Moses.
    There are worse deaths, than hypothermia.


    The Death of Moses

    1And Moses went up from the plains of Moab unto the mountain of Nebo, to the top of Pisgah, that is over against Jericho. And the LORD shewed him all the land of Gilead, unto Dan, 2And all Naphtali, and the land of Ephraim, and Manasseh, and all the land of Judah, unto the utmost sea, 3And the south, and the plain of the valley of Jericho, the city of palm trees, unto Zoar. 4And the LORD said unto him, This is the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, saying, I will give it unto thy seed: I have caused thee to see it with thine eyes, but thou shalt not go over thither. 5So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. 6And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day. 7And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated. 8And the children of Israel wept for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days: so the days of weeping and mourning for Moses were ended.

  15. #75
    Boolit Grand Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    Thinking about withholding care as being euthanasia, our means of prolonging the existence of a pain filled body changes all the time. We can stretch out the torture far longer now than just a few years ago and we're getting so much better at it that it's just about getting as goofy as it is expensive.

    When does civilization draw the line? We don't want to go back to the igloo and set the old folks out in the snow. But really, how far down that ol' technocratic trail do we want to go? I really don't think theology is going to be the deciding factor in that decision making.

  16. #76
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    Theology has gotten us into this mess...

    from etymologyonline

    theology (n.)

    mid-14c., "the science of religion, study of God and his relationship to humanity," from Old French theologie "philosophical study of Christian doctrine; Scripture" (14c.), from Latin theologia, from Greek theologia "an account of the gods," from theologos "one discoursing on the gods," from theos "god" (from PIE root *dhes-, forming words for religious concepts) + -logos "treating of" (see -logy). Meaning "a particular system of theology" is from 1660s.

    Theology moves back and forth between two poles, the eternal truth of its foundations and the temporal situation in which the eternal truth must be received. [Paul Tillich, "Systematic Theology," 1951]

    <...go not to the elves, for they say yes and no. -- JRR Tolkien>

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by HollowPoint View Post
    In my less than knowledgeable understanding of the redemption that Jesus Christ blessed his followers with, I am given to believe that we have been forgiven of all of our sins, past, present and future.

    If suicide is a sin and you are a follower/believer in the redemptive work of Jesus Christ then, yea, you are forgiven. When you add onto that the omniscience of our God, don't you think that He would already know what would drive an individual to commit suicide in the first place.

    Arguments could easily be made against my perspectives about this topic by bringing up caveats like, divine healing but, I know an awful lot of sick Christians who are guilt-tripped on a daily basis for not having enough faith to be healed. Many are sanctimoniously ushered into an early grave by these religious gilt-trips. I also know several folks who have actually been miraculously healed and they weren't even confessing "Christians." They were just prayed for by the laying on of hands and they were healed.

    I do profess to be a Christian and I too have been healed of conditions that I was told would never go away so, what are we to think about these, being healed or not being healed possibilities?

    Before Jesus was hung on the cross and died in order that we could be redeemed, I distinctly recall reading in the Bible that (paraphrasing) they couldn't take his life. He gave it up willingly.
    As He hung on the cross, didn't he state, "Father, into your hands I submit my spirit?" He chose to die at that moment. Can this be characterized as suicide? Euthanasia is something very controversial, and for me, it's hard to say whether I'm for or against it. Maybe after writing about it, I'll be able to form an opinion. I've found a lot of info, and this link with euthanasia essay samples, which is very helpful for me and also informative. They helped me with ideas, and now I need to write my own opinion.

    I don't think it can but, I mention it because my own ignorance on this topic leads me to believe that God understands why one would do such a thing as take their own life. Still, there are so many negative nuances to this subject and when you start talking about euthanasia or, what we humans can mis-label as "Mercy Killing," in my mind this becomes a treacherously slippery slope. It brings to mind, abortion.

    HollowPoint
    Your point of view is very close to mine. "I am given to believe that we have been forgiven of all of our sins, past, present and future." But a sin is a sin, and many people still won't be able to do something considered to be a sin knowing that "All sins shall be forgiven, except the sin against the Holy Ghost". And I don't think that Euthanasia is such a sin.
    I can understand why some people are for euthanasia because I can't imagine how hard it is to live in pain, without any chances to get better. All your life is a pain, so I can't judge people for their will finally to rest. Or the relatives of the person who just want to help them.
    Last edited by marklarson; 06-20-2023 at 12:00 PM.

  18. #78
    Boolit Buddy Gobeyond's Avatar
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    I don’t think it’s a good idea to kill people. Isn’t there enough of that going on (abortion, wars). Make it available sure for the exceptions. But let righteous people choose what is righteous.

    I’m not sure how merciful God is. Obedience might be better. What about going to church, how important is it. What about for the sick? Should everything be overcome to obey God because where God calls He empowers? What about chronic pain. Is it all right to go to church in the comfort of your own home? How merciful is God as a topic for discussion!

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