Euthanasia....

[.429&H110]

My wife is convinced her dogs went to heaven,
because of Job 12:9,10

Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the LORD hath wrought this?
In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.
Amen

Genesis entrusts Man with dominion, a stewardship over all the earth.
The Shepherd calls some to be sheepdogs because He also made wolves.
Without the Sword of the Spirit we are clueless, guessing.

Our soul is on this earth for a span of days, known only to God.
When God calls time, I don't believe the manner of passing matters.
Although the deceiver can kill our spirits, kill our bodies, steal our souls,
we have to choose to let that happen.
Choose well.

[Eddie Southgate]

I'm sure animals will be in heaven , have never had the first doubt. My wife on the other hand says animals won't go to heaven as they have no soul. I can't believe that god made any living creature without a soul.

[1hole]

I'm sure animals will be in heaven , have never had the first doubt.

Well Ed, we know there will be a quite large herd of white horses waiting for all of us in heaven don't we?

[Hogtamer]

James wrote, “mercy triumphs over judgement.” I believe that.

[Bmi48219]

I was conversing with my brother yesterday on a similar topic.
Whatever comes to us, be it happiness, illness, fortune or tragedy, is a manifestation of God’s love for us. Just as winning a million bucks may be a way we can share His love (or allow greed to consume us); injury of illness of ourselves or a loved one, that on its face seems like a curse, may be an opportunity to show our love or support and thereby living as Jesus lived.

Nothing ‘happens’ without a reason. To truly love God is to accept whatever He sends us and find a way to be better or make someone else’s life better because of it.
In her last few months my mother’s cancer caused her terrible pain. There was nothing we could do to relieve her, except administer morphine. Dad was opposed to that idea, but she was dying anyway so the morphine was the only loving option we had.
I don’t consider allowing someone to peacefully depart a body wracked with constant, fatal pain to be euthanasia. If I become that patient, I hope someone will release me.

[.429&H110]

"In my Father's house there are many mansions"

We bless dogs and pray with them and for them
not sure about baptizing them, but they get a bath anyway.

[Rizzo]

First off, I want to thank those that offered condolences to me about the loss of my family dog.
There is certainly a void in the house now that will take awhile to adjust to.
It is much appreciated.

Secondly, thank you all for your input and those that shared their stories of friends, family and your personal experience on the Euthanasia issue.

To Lloyd Smale, although it may be too soon after your latest surgery to know how things went, I wish you good health and hopefully you'll be out "spinnin' donuts" in your side by side very soon.

In the first post I asked:

"Would God approve of a "saved" person who was in such misery that the person chose Euthansia?
Thou shalt not kill (murder)" comes to mind but does that include suicide?" "

From the posts made, the consensus seems to be that Suicide (Euthanasia for those with extreme suffering) is a sin but because the person is "Saved", his/her sin is forgiven.
That is comforting to know.

However, suicide, in the case of not being in the Euthanasia realm , would also be forgiven....if the person is "Saved".

So, for those who are tired of this physical life, there would appear to be an open door to commit suicide in order to hasten their meeting up with Jesus on the other side.

Something seems wrong with that notion.

Confused again............

Thoughts on this issue?

[1hole]

.... However, suicide, in the case of not being in the Euthanasia realm , would also be forgiven....if the person is "Saved".

So, for those who are tired of this physical life, there would appear to be an open door to commit suicide in order to hasten their meeting up with Jesus on the other side.

Something seems wrong with that notion.

Confused again............

Thoughts on this issue?

Thoughts? Yeah, I sorta do.

First, about what being "saved" means. It's not something mystical, it means we are saved from the normal effects of being lost in our sin. The wages of sin is (spiritual) death and Jesus has paid that penalty, in full, for his followers so we are said to be "saved"; that would have to include suicide. Otherwise we'd only be "sorta saved" from "most" of our mortal failings and that would make no sense. I say believers are totally saved from all sin or we are not truly saved at all but we ARE truly saved and I really like that!

Second, if you think about the basic 10 point list of what is rightly called sin you will see that it ALL falls into two categories; we're told (1) not to disrespect our God (that hurts us, not Him) and (2) to do no harm to other people ... and then we're told to not even think of doing so! In other words, it's clearly a sin to deliberately harm or wish harm or insult to others but how does suicide fit into that? I don't think it fits at all but, if I'm wrong, what dark and evil harm to others has any pained suicider done to deserve hell when his life becomes more than he can bear? Don't be confused, there's nothing wrong or mixed about that notion.

In fact, I believe it's an insult to our loving God to believe He would judge hell for the poor souls who mean no harm are driven to step out of the waiting line and go to Him now rather than continuing to endure hopeless agony. (Perhaps those who won't agree need to experience a few educational months of terminal 24/7 sweat popping physical or mental anguish for themselves? )

[Gobeyond]

Both of us would drink all of the cup of the Lord.

[dverna]

It is my understanding that once you accept Jesus as your Savoir, you are granted eternal life by His grace. Every...and I mean every sin...except denying God, is forgiven.

Lloyd....hope you are doing well.

[Alabama358]

1 Samuel chapter 31:4

4 Then said Saul unto his armourbearer, Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith; lest these uncircumcised come and thrust me through, and abuse me. But his armourbearer would not; for he was sore afraid. Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell upon it.

So it looks like Saul committed suicide here and I am pretty sure he is with the LORD. I make this assumption by the conversation Saul with Samuel a few chapters back

1 Samuel chapter 28:19
19 Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

[38SuperAuto]

Would God approve of a "saved" person who was in such misery that the person chose Euthansia?

"Thou shalt not kill (murder)" comes to mind but does that include suicide?

Thoughts?

Here's the issue with suicide: God calls you to sacrifice like the example He set for us in His Son Jesus. Jesus suffered much pain in the scourging, crowning with thorns, carrying of the cross, and His crucifixion. We are created in the image of God with a body and an eternal soul, so thou should respect your body. God is the author of life, so He determines when life starts and when life ends. We can't possibly imagine how beautiful heaven will be, but Jesus did say to the good thief (who repented), who was being crucified next to him: "today, you will be in paradise."

If you are in your right mind, and not being coerced, and understand that suicide is a grave (mortal) sin, then you are risking your salvation by taking your own life. If you love God above all things, and truly want to serve Him and His people, they live your full life and pray for His mercy.

rob

[.429&H110]

I am very interested in discussions of this subject...
I retired to a retirement community with a big heated pool,
hot tub, pickleball, and Cali refugees.
Average age is over 80.

We mostly have little dogs, and walk them
in the desert sun (scold the coyotes).
(I've seen a big boar javalina up close that needs shooting...)
(Mountain lions wander through, can't shoot them either)
The old folks follow their dogs, and their dogs lead them home.
Some might not find their houses without their dog.
Their little dog brings them home to get dinner.

The lost are terrified of this subject.
So they die of alcoholism.
Isn't that like poisoning oneself?
Social Security check day, the booze aisle at walmart is bare shelves.

The saved around here have an acceptance of the life they have remaining,
some are great evangelists, from a life of witnessing miracles,
and we all are weary of doctors treating while only Jesus heals.

My dad's death certificate said he died at 89 of Alzheimer's and dehydration.
Do I get to choose differently?
God knows.

[1hole]

... If you are in your right mind, and not being coerced, and understand that suicide is a grave (mortal) sin, ....

Super, that's misleading.

Thing is, so far as sin goes, all sins are "mortal". Suicide, combat or evil killing (murder), etc., are just sins. All sins are worthy of hell so raping a resisting nanny goat or stealing a candy bar from Walmart have equal penalties.

Thank God, by the love of Jesus, saved souls have been bought (redeemed) out of sin's deadly bondage. Everyone's total sin record has been paid for by Jesus IF they choose to call on Him as Savior and Lord. By his blood sacrifice, Jesus has already atoned for all of every born again believer's sins. Thus, the only unforgivable - mortal - sin is a lack of willing belief/faith/trust in Jesus as personal savior and King!.

In this life we each make our own eternal choice. We must accept Jesus as our Lord and live eternally with him in heaven or reject him and live an eternal living death in hell with Satan without Him.

...then you are risking your salvation by taking your own life.

Again, there's just ONE unforgivable sin. And suicide - even murder - ain't it. (Mat 12:30-32)

If you love God above all things, and truly want to serve Him and His people, they live your full life and pray for His mercy.

Individual judgement for eternity in heaven or hell is fixed by ourselves at the moment of mortal death. Those who are "born again" believers are already recipients of His mercy but those who are not born again .... well, there's some really bad news! (John 3:3).

Bottomline, people who are not true believers are going to hell at mortal death no matter what prayers they or anyone else may cry, now or later, for "mercy". (John 3:16-18)

Come quickly Lord Jesus!

[deces]

If you are Catholic, you can just say 10 Hail Marys afterwards.

[Shanghai Jack]

Well at risk of offending everyone, why is there suffering and evil?

All my parents and grandparents have suffered horribly on the road to eventual death. In suffering there is relentless pain - nothing else. No nobility, no pleasing of a greater power, no guarantee of redemption, no nothing.

I reject the whole "in suffering there is salvation" construct. It is a relic and harkens back to early times, probably most aptly typified in various Monty Python medieval times skits. The way the church kept the hoi polloi in check was to promise the great unwashed that things would be better after they died but they had to behave and walk in lockstep with the church's teachings and endure their current sufferings. If they didn't they would be consigned to a place that was worse that what they currently had. Even the densest serf could understand that.

If we are kind enough to spare our four-legged family members continued pain and suffering, then stay out of my way when we want to do the same thing for our two-legged family members. And don't brand me or my loved one with the stigma of "sinner". Its another bs construct.

[Good Cheer]

Jack, asking why is there suffering and evil shouldn't offend anyone who has studied scripture.

[Alabama358]

If you are in your right mind, and not being coerced, and understand that suicide is a grave (mortal) sin, then you are risking your salvation by taking your own life. If you love God above all things, and truly want to serve Him and His people, they live your full life and pray for His mercy.

rob

I suppose if you were a Jew still under the Law...but even then according to James there was no "Grave sin" if you broke one you were guilty of them all.

James 2:10
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

That being said... We are not under the Old Covenant but under the New Covenant.

Hebrews 8:
5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

In the New Covenant our Salvation is by Grace through Faith and not of works.
Once a person is saved there is nothing that would put their salvation at risk. We have had that yoke taken off

Ephesians 4:30
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Sealed is Sealed

[Bigslug]

Rizzo, it really comes down to how deeply into the Christian dogmas you are.

Shanghai Jack comes pretty close to my thinking on the matter - I don't see a benevolent guiding hand anywhere. Such, if it existed, wouldn't play games of "I made heaven first, and it's perfect, but I'm going to make you live through a world of suck to get there, and if you don't do it my way, I'll send you to a world of greater suck forever". That's just one human construct of many for ways in which we can choose (or force) to interact with each other.

And really, what is the benefit to sucking it up, or forcing someone to suck it up to beyond the limits of their endurance? Any benevolent and omnipotent critter that was going to provide a miracle healing would be aware of that limit and do so before it was reached. Ultimately the end comes, and in our final extremity, we're nothing more than a bag of organs waiting for decomposition to start, and it can hurt - a lot - before it does. I'm not about to follow an entity who claims that is necessary.

Primitive, nomadic cultures perhaps provide some guidance here - at the point a member can't migrate, they have to be left behind for the wolves, polar bears, or hyaenas, lest they hold the tribe back to their ultimate doom. Today, we see the same in the physical, mental, and financial drain in terms of effort spent to stave off the inevitable. What good god is going to ask us to suffer to prolong suffering?

As to mental anguish, it's less objectively obvious in how to approach than the physical, but I'd say the same general rules apply. Your limit is your limit, and if the benevolent entity isn't providing relief, deciding it's time to go is nobody's business but your own. Why would a god judge such actions harshly since it presumably knew your limit going in?

[HollowPoint]

I don't want to sound like I'm discounting the seriousness of the original intent of the initial question about "euthanasia" but, at three pages long now it seems that this conversation has become or is becoming overly thought out or overly serious.

I think I'm partly to blame for that.

I should have replied with a bit more levity but, that might have been slightly offensive.

Something like:

In the past I've had the pleasure of traveling to various parts of our world except to those parts of the world which are considered to be parts of Asia. In those places where I have been to, I've found that the youth there all seem to be basically the same. This leads me to believe that the Youth-In-Asia would most likely be no different, other than the different languages spoken.

HollowPoint