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Thread: Euthanasia....

  1. #21
    Boolit Buddy
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    I am of two minds: Yes for humanitarian reasons in cases of unending, acute pain; no for legal reasons as it would become a very slippery slope. Insurance companies and government both have a fiscal interest in reducing long term care. No clue what the Almighty thinks.

  2. #22
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    FIRST, you have my deepest most heartfelt condolences on the loss of your dog. We had to put down our 17-year old best buddy (Border Collie/Bird Dog) on July 4th, and it hurt like hell. He was in so much pain he was screaming, like he was being burned alive.

    I know that prime-time sit-coms are NOT usually the right place to look for guidance on such matters, but I am reminded of an episode of "Night Court" (Season 4, Episode 12) in which a bereaved wife (played by Florence Stanley) tries to confess to murdering (shooting) her husband to cover his suicide.
    One of the "less cerebral" characters on the show finally explains to her that, because her husband was in such awful pain his suicide was no shame on his or her part.
    "There's just some places that God doesn't want us to go, alone!" was the line. It has stuck with me for 39 years, especially in situations of extreme suffering, that you describe.
    For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. Ecclesiastes 1:18
    He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind: and the fool become servant to the wise of heart. Proverbs 11:29
    ...Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Matthew 25:40


    Carpe SCOTCH!

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by HollowPoint View Post
    We lost our mom a couple of years back to the same Alzheimer symptoms. She was about the same age, and she could no longer recognize any of us. She didn't know who we were or even who she was.
    Earlier, during a time when she did have sufficient wits about her, she did leave written instructions to let her expired if she were ever to find herself in a medical state of not being able to make such a decision on her own. Those documents were kept by my oldest sister.

    Perhaps for the most selfish of reasons, our sister chose to tear up those documents and throw them away. When she told us what she had done, none of her six siblings objected. This too was equally selfish but, none of us could bear the thought of allowing our mom to die, regardless of the circumstances. It didn't matter that she didn't know who we were when we'd visit her in the nursing home. She was still our mom.

    It was strange to me that she didn't know who her own kids were but, when one of my nieces or nephews would bring their small children to visit her, she never forgot what a baby was. A baby meant, family. She would always take them in her arms and love them like one would expect for a grandma to do.

    All of our prayers and all of our well-wishing didn't turn the tide. Eventually we got that phone call that kids who love their parents dread having to receive. She passed away in her sleep, according to the nursing home staff. We were glad she was free from that Alzheimer scourge but, we were enormously saddened that we had lost part of the glue that holds a family together.

    Should we have honored her wishes to let her die if she ever found herself in a circumstance where she couldn't have made such a decision on her own? It was about eight years between the time she had documented her wishes till the day she died.

    Our mom was a confessing Christian too. We'll follow along eventually so, if apologies are due, that will be the time and the place where one would imagine that apologies would take place; although, if or when we make it to Heaven, nothing about what transpired in this earthly life will really matter anymore, will it?

    HollowPoint
    Today the paperwork gets filed with your local doctor and in a hospital shared file. If you are conscious you can rescind those written instructions and state your wishes. If you are not they cannot be changed by family. One of my brothers business partners spent over 3 million dollars to keep their father alive when he had been on a ventilator for over 2 years. Todays' medical professionals will let you spend all the money you have to keep someone alive and prevent a lawsuit charging them with not doing their all.
    [The Montana Gianni] Front sight and squeeze

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    That is certain.

    But let us not mix up euthanasia and suicide. I see them as different subjects. People commit suicide for many reasons...from dealing with awful pain, or guilt, or even being bullied on Facebook.
    I live with physical pain every day. Have since 1973. Ive had 15 operations and go in wendsday for number 16 a spinal fusion. Physical pain i can deal with but mental pain can be every bit as debilitating as physical pain. Ive been around severely mentally disabled veterans. Believe on thing. If anything its much harder to deal with then physical pain. I cant imagine living in the body of someone who life sucks so badly that he kills himself. Now thats some pain. I have to believe that my loving God would forgive a soul for that. I would pray he would if for no other reason then to help those parents suffering with that loss. So where do you draw the line as to who goes to heaven and who doesnt. The young kid that got hooked on drugs due to peer pressure or the wife who got hooked after a surgery? The parent that feels guilt because there kid commited suicide?? The soldier that lives every day with the guilt of taking a life. The poor child that gets relentlessly picked on in school and even physicaly attacked and doesnt see an end to it?? The guy with terminal cancer that lives in agony and knows theres no end and its going to get worse?? The disabled vet that lost both his legs and a arm at 19 and is looking at a life i wouldnt want?? I fall into a couple of those catagorys and wont say which but i have learned to deal with it. Was it a struggle at times? Hell yes. But thats me. Not everyone is as bullheaded and mentaly tough as me. Yes ive leaned on God many times. But as to God putting every suicide victim in hell id say that is a mindset brought to you by the church not by God. If you believe in that then everyone thats overweight, drinks, smokes, drives to fast or eats the wrong food that they know could possibly kill them will end up in hell. Like i said i dont judge. Ill leave that to God and he loves ALL of us.

  5. #25
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    ill give you one more example to chew on. My mother Dad died two years ago. My ma and dad were as close as they get and best friends all there lives. They were both devout catholics. the local priest came to there home every friday night for supper. When Dad died at 89 a piece of her died too. She always did suffer a bit with depression and anxiety and took meds most of her life. She also suffered in pain for the last 10 years and couldnt walk without a walker and barely with that. Dad had to do about everything for her. She went down hill fast when dad died and about 10 months later my sister found her slumped over in the bathroom. The ambulance took her to the hospital and the doc said because she had say in that slumped over position (no doubt because she couldnt get up and dad wasnt there to help her) for so long that it can actually shut down body functions and her liver was all buy about shut down.

    She did wake up for a bit and the doctor had me my sister and her in the room and told her that he could put her on dialysis and keep her alive but she would probably never leave the hospital and he didnt know at her age how long that would even keep her alive. He said the other alternative was to basically go home and do hospice till she past. She said one word. HOME!. after that she drifted in and out but never said a word. So we brought her home and she died that first night. she wouldnt even take meds or a drink of water. Now she would NEVER commit suicide and honestly was depressed enough at times that she prayed for God to take her. Some who judge would say her giving up and going home was suicide and honestly id have a hard time arguing for her. Do you think she went to hell for not taking all the chances put in front of her to stay alive? Me i think God was right there. The last time i saw her smile was when the priest that was her friend came in and gave her last rites. When he was done he did a sign of the cross on her forehead and she cracked a slight smile

  6. #26
    Boolit Master Wag's Avatar
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    Lloyd, I have to say that if I believed in a god, your version is the one I would choose.

    I'll just leave it at that......

    --Wag--
    "Great genius will always encounter fierce opposition from mediocre minds." --Albert Einstein.

  7. #27
    Boolit Grand Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    Lloyd we all have choices in this life. Most of them that are wrong choices we have the chance to repent and ask for forgiveness.

    My Lord MADE me, he knows me better than I know myself. I believe in a loving God and son not a stern and law filled one.

    FIrst of all in your sisters case, it is her body and her life. I do not think he would consider her need to go home to die a sin. I really don't.
    I think at that point even if no one else got through to her. I think the Lord would be telling her that her race was almost over. That she needed to prepare for that.

    I think the smile at the last rights was the completion of the last thing on her list.
    I believe the Lord himself was there to take her home.


    When my father died I asked after 2 weeks where he was, how it was with him.
    I was told he was doing penance. Being punished for what he did to those around him in the last years of his life.
    When mom passed I was told she was able to visit and enourage him. Within a month his penance completed he was with Mom and our Lord.

    So I believe there are options other than the black and white hell or heaven.

    I do believe that truly repenting of all sins, both of commision and ommision, those remembered and those forgotten makes a HUGE difference.
    I believe your sister did that. I believe the Holy Spirit when he tells me your sister is not in hell. She is with the Lord and happy. I truly believe this and hope it brings some peace. God Bless and Keep you Lloyd.

    May the Lord bless you and keep you. May the Lord make His face to shine upon you and be gracious
    unto you and give you His peace. May you humble yourself and pray for your family, church, and
    nation. His eyes are open, His ears are attentive, and His heart is with you.

    This I believe.

    But don't take my word for it, ask him yourself!
    I truly believe we need to get back to basics.

    Get right with the Lord.
    Get back to the land.
    Get back to thinking like our forefathers thought.


    May the Lord bless you and keep you. May the Lord make His face to shine upon you and be gracious unto you
    and give you His peace. Let all of the earth – all of His creation – worship and praise His name! Make His
    praise glorious!

  8. #28
    Boolit Master
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    I blame the misinterpretations of the Word of God by organized religion when it comes to the real lack of understanding surrounding euthanasia or suicide. There is far more to these subjects in terms of spirit mind and body and we're only seeing it from the outside looking in.

    The only consolation I can wring out of this lack of true understanding is that God is the ultimate judge, not us.

    HollowPoint

  9. #29
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    The only consolation I can wring out of this lack of true understanding is that God is the ultimate judge, not us.
    Add that God loves each and every one of us and we must believe in him and that IS religion the rest is fluff.

  10. #30
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Lloyd, its good to see you posting again. Good Luck with the coming surgery, hope its successful.

    I'll have to ask my BIL about this euthanasia thing the next time I see him. He is a Bible Scholar, has a PHD in Religion and has taught at the college level. He has also pastured several churches. He knows more about the Bible than anyone that I know.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by imashooter2 View Post
    I’m no theologian, but I cannot believe the same God that loves me would damn my soul to hell for that sin.
    AMEN to that...and I will say no more...this subject is very divisive in the Christian community.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by lightman View Post
    Lloyd, its good to see you posting again. Good Luck with the coming surgery, hope its successful.

    I'll have to ask my BIL about this euthanasia thing the next time I see him. He is a Bible Scholar, has a PHD in Religion and has taught at the college level. He has also pastured several churches. He knows more about the Bible than anyone that I know.
    surgery is tommarow. Getting a bit nervous this morning. Like you know ive had MANY MANY surgerys but theres something about screwing a cage to your spine and transplanting cadaver bone that gives me the creeps. That and i spent almost two years in the hospital back in the 70s and the doc told me id probably be there for two days and honestly id rather be in jail for two days. He told me too to start facing the fact im old and beat up because this is the last time he can go through my back to work on my spine due to scaring. He said next time its through the side and outcomes arent as reliable like that. He told me to put away the side by side and the harley and snowmobiles and dont even think about riding them. My wife told him "good luck with that"

  13. #33
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    You are in my prayers Lloyd
    Being human is not for sissies.

  14. #34
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    I have a different take than has been discussed here, probably, in part, due to my wife being a hospice nurse. My biggest problem with euthanasia, or death with dignity, as the euphemism goes, is that an entire class people is given an open ended power to kill people! It's not spoken of frequently in these discussions, but in the places where this is law, the elderly can becomes fearful of any inpatient procedures, due to stories, maybe true, maybe not, of people being "suicided" without their permission. There are already known cases where depression was declared reason enough for a minor to end his or her life, over the objections of parents. (I don't believe that has happened in the USA, yet) as for end of life and hospice, I believe hospice workers have the hearts of angels! The comfort they provide goes way beyond those dying. Their job is make the transition from this world as comfortable as possible, as well as to assist the living with grieving. If there was one thing I would seek for end of life matters, it would be no restrictions on pain management protocols.
    Chicken Little has finally found an audience

  15. #35
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    Putting down an animal and putting down a human are very different according to the King James Bible.

    An animal has no chance of redemption by accepting Christ as their savior, but any human does until the last millisecond of life.

    So it may be Prudent to give the human every bit of time we can to make that decision. Once the lights go out there's no second chance.

    That's the King James Bible's take on it; your mileage may very.

  16. #36
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    If the Euthanized were Chrisleys , Kardashians , Presleys and some of the current crop of influencers I think God would be on board.
    Grumpy Old Man With A Gun....... Do Not Touch !!

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harter66 View Post
    ...."if the Commandments say thou Shalt Not Kill, what of our servicemen ?". The response was more or less from the Old Testament and fell into the Laws of Man from God under the eye for an eye and......
    We tend to miss the point of a lot of scripture because we don't know much about how old testament people lived. "An eye for an eye ..." is NOT authorization to vent our rage at anyone, it simply forbids extracting a punishment worse than the crime.

    Suicide is a sin . It is the conscious decision to kill for self gratification .
    Suicide has to be a "sin"? I don't know if that's really true or not but even if it's true, so what? I mean, would it not be just another sin that Jesus has already paid our debt for? Whatever, there is only ONE unforgiveable sin and suicide is not it! The cross paid for all of our other failings.

  18. #38
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    If suicide is a sin and you must repent of your sins to be forgiven, how can you repent before the act? In order to enter heaven you must repent of ALL your sins!

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by augercreek View Post
    If suicide is a sin and you must repent of your sins to be forgiven, how can you repent before the act? In order to enter heaven you must repent of ALL your sins!

    If you read the King James Bible suicide is not a sin; once a person is saved they are always saved.

    Saved people get into Circumstances beyond what their Mind Can Control and think that's the only way out too.

    There are Homeless people using drugs and wondering the streets right now that got saved when they were younger and if the Horn blew today they would go home to be with the Lord.

    Pew Warmer's that give Big Money to Churches hate that Statement, but that's True New Testament Gospel for the age of grace in this dispensation we are in today.

    Unfortunately people listen to the word's of man instead of READING their Bible.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by augercreek View Post
    If suicide is a sin and you must repent of your sins to be forgiven, how can you repent before the act? In order to enter heaven you must repent of ALL your sins!
    Auger, you've been given an erroneous denominational and badly distorted - manmade - view of repentance and salvation.

    There is no Biblical demand for a moment by moment checklist of repented vs. unrepented sins before the unconfessed sinner is totally forgiven for being another imperfect soul saved by the grace of God through faith in Christ. Born again believers are saved eternally, not saved for a brief moment in time.

    One denomination in particular wrongly seeks to grip its adherents with frightened emotional dependence on man's rules, including constant acts of "confession and repentance" (their confessions are expected to be formally given to one of their appointed priesthood staff, not in direct prayer to God because they're taught that's not good enough). Fact is, none of their "do this plus that" doctrine for a moment of confessed salvation is true.

    We sinners need to recognise that we were and remain sinners. Our love for Jesus should motivate us to live more like Him every day, not to live in fear and dread that He might abandon us to hell for failing a rule. The impossibility of salvation by following man's traditions and rules was the specific old testament motivation that led Jesus to the cross!

    Any religious organization using fear of God's retribution to better control its members is teaching an unbiblical gospel of salvation by faith in Jesus plus following their supposedly spiritual rules!. At its best that's NOT "Christian" no matter what they claim about themselves.

    So, don't sweat all that confessional/repenting small stuff because God is not petty. Those souls who have honestly been born again have been accepted/adopted into God's eternal family by our faith in Jesus and that's not a brief moment-by-moment, in and out salvation obtained by following anyone else's rules.

    Bottom line, those who have been forgiven the big stuff have also been forgiven the trivial stuff. Including confessions.

    (See John 3:16-18 and while you're there, note there is no mention of any purgatory where we can finish what Jesus started - Jesus himself is the once and done author and finisher of our faith, not we our confessing/repenting selves! ... Heb 12:2)

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