Load Development, Fouling and Vertical Stringing

[Don McDowell]

The bore wipers what they’re wet with and how wet and how they’re followed can be about as much trial and error as load development. Much like lord every rifle will be quick to point out likes and dislikes.
Without consistent bore condition vertical will be a major problem
With the trapdoor wiping the bore between shots is a pretty tough row to hoe.
The best route will be a good blow tube routine coupled wit a very good lube and a bullet that carry’s enough of it
Guys like Gullo , Johnson, Wilkes etal have put the time in to get the whole deal figured out for their rifles

[Lead pot]

And it also helps shooting with the team that can read the conditions well.

[Don McDowell]

Even when some of those guys are shooting rifleman they have things figured out

[Lead pot]

That's what it takes.

[SteveOKo922]

Hi there, mabey we can collude on this matter with trapdoors and verticle stringing. I am currently developing loads for an 1888 RRB, 1884 carbine and 1879 Trapdoor rifle with the 405g and 500gn bullet. So far, everything spencer wolf has detailed in his book has worked ESPECIALLY the crimp and enlarged flash hole with magnum primer. Today I shot the best groups ever after following his method to a "T". However, sometimes I'm getting verticle strings, but still within 4moa He mentioned the trapdoor is a negative jump rifle so mabey we are holding the rifle incorrectly and or have a poor sight picture?

[SteveOKo922]

Let me elaborate of the negative jump I mentioned. So far. Every group I have shot from the prone supported has produced verticle strings except when I DO NOT place my hand under the rifle. Every other position produces regular groups, especially sitting and standing. Perhaps the rifle has a tendency to recoil upwards then back? I cannot find any literature on "negative or positive recoil"

[GregLaROCHE]

Did the vertical start high and go down or did it vary? If they started high and went down fouling is suspect. If they varied, it could be a difference in the loads. Do you use a drop tube and compress the powder? Taper crimp?

[Lead pot]

Torque has a lot to do with oblique stringing especially with rifles like the rolling blocks that have a lot of drop in the stock.
If you don't control the recoil you will get open groups.
This is easy to find out. Just for the heck of it put on a dry soft cotton glove like the yellow shore gloves you can pick up in farm stores or elsewhere and shoot 5 rounds. Now take that glove off and just blow in your hand a couple times to moisten them a little and shoot 5 more holding the stock wrist snug but the same and compare the targets.
If you don't control that rifle the same shot per shot you will get open groups. The higher recoiling rifle the larger the groups.

And also forcing that rifle to center outside your natural point of aim shot per shot especially using a scope will open the groups.

[RSAPD]

Did the vertical start high and go down or did it vary? If they started high and went down fouling is suspect. If they varied, it could be a difference in the loads. Do you use a drop tube and compress the powder? Taper crimp?

I tried some of the methods from Wolf's book and found the enlarged flash hole and magnum primer to be inconsistent. Larry Gibson wrote wads seem to not matter. Don McDowell has written about the magnums and bigger flash hole not being needed. From reading the forums here and elsewhere, I don't drop tube because it is a moderately compressed load and do not taper crimp. Of course, every rifle is different and what seems to work for one does not work for another. Have you found the taper crimp to be critical for you?

[SteveOKo922]

Is your rifle bouncing off the sticks ?

I tried some of the methods from Wolf's book and found the enlarged flash hole and magnum primer to be inconsistent. Larry Gibson wrote wads seem to not matter. Don McDowell has written about the magnums and bigger flash hole not being needed. From reading the forums here and elsewhere, I don't drop tube because it is a moderately compressed load and do not taper crimp. Of course, every rifle is different and what seems to work for one does not work for another. Have you found the taper crimp to be critical for you?

Strange, my rifles didn't not shoot worth a hoot untill I hit them with a 3/32 drillbit. Like night and day. When from 12" to 3" groups. The crimp on the 405g was also nessecary. No wad. Next I'm going to lube them with Japan wax and graphite like the orginals. I also managed to find an orginal box of 405g TD ammo and shot it through my 1879 rifle. 10 rounds, no wiping, all centered and a nice 4 inch group.

Spencer wolf wasn't kidding about anything in his book

[Lead pot]

Is it the 3/32" diameter hole in all cases, or is it a uniform diameter in all cases that shrunk your groups?

[SteveOKo922]

I shot a 20 round group with unaltered and 20 rounds altered brass. The 3/32 brass shot the most consistently and smallest group.

[steveu]

I shoot 65 grains of 1.5 Swiss w/500 bullets in my 1888 TD & 1885 Remington Lee. I have found that 2 damp patches on a nylon bore brush works best for me. My cases have the flash holes drilled and I use magnum primers. As for the trigger, you can search the web and find the article on how to make a spring from music wire to lighten the pull.

[Jpaver]

I’m new here and have no clue how to use this. Is this where I can ask about fouling problems with my pedersoli sharps?

[Thundermaker]

I’m new here and have no clue how to use this. Is this where I can ask about fouling problems with my pedersoli sharps?

You'll probably want to post a new thread if you want all the replies to pertain to your question.

[martinibelgian]

What does surprise me is that no one mentioned the 'single breath between shots ' for fouling management. IME, certainly not enough, so fouling issues.

[Lead pot]

I don't have the Spence Wolf book but I borrowed and read it. There is some info I don't agree with and I also tried some of what he mentioned and it added brass to the brass scrap barrel.
If you're getting a bunch of vertical it's more likely from not enough fouling control or just important is the case prep and loading the components, also controlling the rifle and position behind it.
When I get a new lot of powder I do the ladder load test using the same wads/powder/primers/bullets/alloy and just change the compression.
Target 1-3 you can see the difference what just changing the compression does by a one grain increase of powder. Those three targets were shot at the 200 yard line with no sight changing allowing for the conditions.
The white target was shot using a new mould I got from Rick at KAL and worked up the first load developments at close range before moving out to the 200 yard line. You can see the difference just with different powders. Those three targets were the final ladder load test.
Use proper fouling control, case prep and load development.
Enlarging flash holes and mag primers never did the job for me shooting black powder.
Uniform your brass so you have consistent case neck tension for a good bullet release so you dont get a bunch of odd chamber pressures will help a lot also.
Breach seating the bullet is a large help that eliminates bullet release from a fixed shell holding a close chamber pressure.

[RSAPD]

I don't have the Spence Wolf book but I borrowed and read it. There is some info I don't agree with and I also tried some of what he mentioned and it added brass to the brass scrap barrel.
If you're getting a bunch of vertical it's more likely from not enough fouling control or just important is the case prep and loading the components, also controlling the rifle and position behind it.
When I get a new lot of powder I do the ladder load test using the same wads/powder/primers/bullets/alloy and just change the compression.
Target 1-3 you can see the difference what just changing the compression does by a one grain increase of powder. Those three targets were shot at the 200 yard line with no sight changing allowing for the conditions.
The white target was shot using a new mould I got from Rick at KAL and worked up the first load developments at close range before moving out to the 200 yard line. You can see the difference just with different powders. Those three targets were the final ladder load test.
Use proper fouling control, case prep and load development.
Enlarging flash holes and mag primers never did the job for me shooting black powder.
Uniform your brass so you have consistent case neck tension for a good bullet release so you dont get a bunch of odd chamber pressures will help a lot also.
Breach seating the bullet is a large help that eliminates bullet release from a fixed shell holding a close chamber pressure.

Good info leadpot. My experience thus far is I too don't see any improvement with larger flash holes or mag primers. I have some questions, if you don't mind. I just thumb seat my bullets, so the bullets sit a little loose. Are you saying the neck tension should be tighter? What is your definition of proper fouling control? What do you mean by this, "Breach seating the bullet is a large help that eliminates bullet release from a fixed shell holding a close chamber pressure." I have not seen the term breach seating before. Thanks in advance!

[indian joe]

What does surprise me is that no one mentioned the 'single breath between shots ' for fouling management. IME, certainly not enough, so fouling issues.

we all built different! --"one between shots" is plenty for me - (I can fog my glasses to clean em on the hottest dryest day) shooting in a cooler, more humid place, one per is too much -----got boolits with plenty lube on board and only 28inch barrel ---well fitted HDPE wads might make a difference too? (scraper effect?)

[indian joe]

I shoot 65 grains of 1.5 Swiss w/500 bullets in my 1888 TD & 1885 Remington Lee. I have found that 2 damp patches on a nylon bore brush works best for me. My cases have the flash holes drilled and I use magnum primers. As for the trigger, you can search the web and find the article on how to make a spring from music wire to lighten the pull.

The primer thing is interesting - way back last century when Venturino and Garbe were writing their stuff there was quite some emphasis on mag primers (various writers not specially those guys) ....I still have some Federal 215's from that era - to tell the truth I wasnt shooting/building loads good enough to tell the difference but was puzzled why we needed a mag primer to light such easy flammable stuff as blackpowder . As always the scoresheet tells the story best.