Success of hand-annealing 45-70 brass (Starline)

[huntinlever]

Been reading up on annealing 45-70 brass, specifically Starline Brass. A new subject for me, though I knew what the process was. I resize, trim and crimp every time and though I have a couple hundred cases (in a move, we lost a few hundred more years ago. Yes, it kills me. This is when getting them was easy). I guess I should count myself lucky that so far I'll only have the odd case out, usually from cases bent from one thing or another - no split necks or head case separation signs.

First - how many of you simply don't anneal your 45-70 Starline - especially if you full-length size, trim and crimp every time?

Through searching and reading, I know the processes, including the purchase of annealers, has been covered, but I'm not sure this has specifically been asked. To sink $550+ into a machine at this point is untenable, though if it's significant per below I'll think of a cost-benefit appraisal.

The DIY ones I've seen here and on youtube (linked from here as well), are awesome but I'm afraid my abilities here are very limited, so I'd need actual plans to build one.

I am interested in annealing both for case longevity, and for aiding in accuracy, if applicable.

Which brings me to hand-annealing, via something like Starline itself recommends - hand firing the neck and tilting into water. I know there are others, including using a socket and drill, or sand, or salt, or lead. But the basic premise is the same - fire to some variance on "dull red color," or Tempilaq, or some combination thereof.

To my question: I'm very concerned about ruining brass via overheating or getting too much into the head area. I'm also concerned about reaching a consistent annealing - otherwise, my suspicion is, that with inconsistent anneals that pretty much negates the value with respect to consistency and therefore accuracy.

So: How many of you find hand-annealing unsatisfactory, and have bit the bullet to buy a good machine (I've read mixed things on the Annealese; I'm thinking of the Giraud or Mike's Reloading Bench Annealer)?

https://www.giraudtool.com/giraud-ca...-annealer.html
https://www.mikesreloadingbench.com/mrb2018_006.htm

[BLAHUT]

When I anneal, I do by hand, heat and drop into cold water. I do not anneal my 45/70s, I index and load signally, I do not crimp, the 45/70s I use for my bear gun, usually do not get saved, for they are heavy loads, I do some of my 45/60s because they get crimped.

[huntinlever]

When I anneal, I do by hand, heat and drop into cold water. I do not anneal my 45/70s, I index and load signally, I do not crimp, the 45/70s I use for my bear gun, usually do not get saved, for they are heavy loads, I do some of my 45/60s because they get crimped.

Thanks Blahut. You have a single-shot 45-70, did I remember that correctly? I crimp because of the lever. Unless I stay with 5400, which is 30 grains/400 grain bullet, I'm running the 4198 at a medium load of about 1460 fps. What do you think in this case - annealing necessary, or not?

[BLAHUT]

Thanks Blahut. You have a single-shot 45-70, did I remember that correctly? I crimp because of the lever. Unless I stay with 5400, which is 30 grains/400 grain bullet, I'm running the 4198 at a medium load of about 1460 fps. What do you think in this case - annealing necessary, or not?

Yes I have a single shot, and two lever guns. How much are you going to shoot these ?? To anneal or not depend on how much you work the brass ? anneal every 5 to 10 reloads ?? In my single shot I have never full length sized, in my 45/60 I do not resize, keep these in the 1200 FPS range, in my bear gun they usually do not get reloaded, only used that when fishing, haven't gone fishing in years. I just get on the starline backorder when and if I should need brass.

[huntinlever]

Well, I do work the brass pretty hard I think, given that I full-size, trim, (mild) bell, good crimping each time (Since I started reloading the 45-70 back in 2015 or so, I've done it per the advice I've read "a consistent trim is important for accuracy"....not sure where I read it, might have been Lee with it's factory roll-crimping die; not sure how important that is and I'd love to stop trimming).

I'm under 10 loads at this point. I'd thought to just watch for split necks and then go to annealing only if necessary. What do you think?

I'd backorder too and plan too, when Starline opens up again for backordering.

[BLAHUT]

Well, I do work the brass pretty hard I think, given that I full-size, trim, (mild) bell, good crimping each time (Since I started reloading the 45-70 back in 2015 or so, I've done it per the advice I've read "a consistent trim is important for accuracy"....not sure where I read it, might have been Lee with it's factory roll-crimping die; not sure how important that is and I'd love to stop trimming).

I'm under 10 loads at this point. I'd thought to just watch for split necks and then go to annealing only if necessary. What do you think?

I'd backorder too and plan too, when Starline opens up again for backordering.

What kind of accuracy are you after ? one hole 10 shot groups or 6" pie plate at 100 yds ? weight to split IMO is too long, If you are pushing them hard try annealing 10 and see where you are at, 5 loads and then at 10 loads? My target gun the bullets just slide in no crimp even then after a while the primers get loose and time to change out. In my 45/60 they only get crimped if they run through the magazine, other wise just single load, no size, no crimp, when the primers get loose the get replaced. Try loading with out full length resize one round and see if it will chamber with ease ? If you are using in the same gun every time you may not need to full length, only the neck where you are crimping ?

[huntinlever]

Well, I'd say I'd be happy with where I'm hitting now in my load development - say, 2/- MOA. I want to eliminate as much load/rifle errors as I can without wasting everything trying to achieve MOA or the like, then like I used to, just get to offhand practice.

OK, thanks on your suggestion. I did wonder whether depending on neck splitting was both wasteful and too late. I have some bad 45-70 for one reason or the other that I've kept for eventual scrap. If hand-annealing, can you tell me your method? And what signs do you look for to know you've ruined the brass?

[country gent]

I full length resize my 45-70 cases , 3 rifles roller, brochardt and a sharps. I use a bushing die and the PP bore riders get necks sized smaller than the GG. My BPCR brass is annealed every 3rd loading and when new. I use a lyman dipper pot and sand to anneal. works for me. I set to temp with a thermometer and it gets a short soak time then quenched.

Annealing by hand works fine, I did before the pot. Use a socket or make a holder from copper tubing and a coupling. I had a wood ring the propane bottle set in to make it more stable. I sat the tourch on a chep metal folding chair and a bucket of water under the flame. put a case in the holder and heated it to a deep blue very full red and tip into bucket. PMe thing to remember is as you go along even in a dark room, is as your eyes adjust to the flame you see colors and changes differently.

[Chief TC]

I hand anneal and do not even put in water. I just set it down to cool. I discovered this method is used by many people. I have found it to be effective and efficient for my needs. I do a lot of things by hand mostly because I am not reloading huge volume. If i was a volume loader, I'd have a lot more machines.

If you hand anneal for approx 3 seconds and you feel the brass become warm then you are in the zone and you won't over anneal. You can also turn off the light and you will see the color change at about 3 seconds which shows you have completed the process. Look at the videos on annealers and you see this exact process happens. Annealing will be really helpful for you since you FL size and crimp.

I don't trim or resize or crimp, so I anneal only after 4-5 firings. My cases will last a very long time since they don't have to be worked outside of firing.

[shortlegs]

I bought a AGS annealer and like it , I was using a drill and socket. AGS annealers are selling for $210 now. I had to add "legs" to mine to make it easier for ME to use. Look them up as I think you will like them. Templac temperature indicator paint is used to know when you are at your target temperature. Simply adjust your time in the flame with a knob and you have a consistent anneal of your brass.

[huntinlever]

I bought a AGS annealer and like it , I was using a drill and socket. AGS annealers are selling for $210 now. I had to add "legs" to mine to make it easier for ME to use. Look them up as I think you will like them. Templac temperature indicator paint is used to know when you are at your target temperature. Simply adjust your time in the flame with a knob and you have a consistent anneal of your brass.

Awesome, thanks - that was the other one I looked at and I know it was cheaper, but couldn't find it in my history. Much appreciated.

[huntinlever]

I full length resize my 45-70 cases , 3 rifles roller, brochardt and a sharps. I use a bushing die and the PP bore riders get necks sized smaller than the GG. My BPCR brass is annealed every 3rd loading and when new. I use a lyman dipper pot and sand to anneal. works for me. I set to temp with a thermometer and it gets a short soak time then quenched.

Annealing by hand works fine, I did before the pot. Use a socket or make a holder from copper tubing and a coupling. I had a wood ring the propane bottle set in to make it more stable. I sat the tourch on a chep metal folding chair and a bucket of water under the flame. put a case in the holder and heated it to a deep blue very full red and tip into bucket. PMe thing to remember is as you go along even in a dark room, is as your eyes adjust to the flame you see colors and changes differently.

Thanks. I'm intrigued by the sand method, too. Dumb question, but I presume it's a Lyman pot dedicated to this - once you do this, you can't empty out the sand and go back to casting, right? And when you say "a short soak time," do you use anything (i.e., case head warm to touch) to tell you the right time to quench, or do you just sort of go by practice?

[huntinlever]

I hand anneal and do not even put in water. I just set it down to cool. I discovered this method is used by many people. I have found it to be effective and efficient for my needs. I do a lot of things by hand mostly because I am not reloading huge volume. If i was a volume loader, I'd have a lot more machines.

If you hand anneal for approx 3 seconds and you feel the brass become warm then you are in the zone and you won't over anneal. You can also turn off the light and you will see the color change at about 3 seconds which shows you have completed the process. Look at the videos on annealers and you see this exact process happens. Annealing will be really helpful for you since you FL size and crimp.

I don't trim or resize or crimp, so I anneal only after 4-5 firings. My cases will last a very long time since they don't have to be worked outside of firing.

Thanks Chief. I have a lot of brass leftover from other calibers I no longer use so can practice. One question I have is - is annealing pretty tight? What I mean to say, is that if I depend on my "sense" of something like "warm" or "dull red," do the inevitable variances lead to substantially different amounts of softening - so that accuracy is affected significantly?

[pworley1]

For years i hand annealed using a egg beater style hand drill and a socket. I would set the propane torch up on a work bench and with the room lights very dim I would slowly rotate the case in the flame until dull red. I would then tilt the drill and let the case slide into a box on the bench. I have since built an automatic annealer, this is much faster but the hand annealing did just as good a job.

[BLAHUT]

Well, I'd say I'd be happy with where I'm hitting now in my load development - say, 2/- MOA. I want to eliminate as much load/rifle errors as I can without wasting everything trying to achieve MOA or the like, then like I used to, just get to offhand practice.

OK, thanks on your suggestion. I did wonder whether depending on neck splitting was both wasteful and too late. I have some bad 45-70 for one reason or the other that I've kept for eventual scrap. If hand-annealing, can you tell me your method? And what signs do you look for to know you've ruined the brass?

With the difficulty getting components; I went back to shooting my air guns, offhand, pellets at $3.00 for 500 is very good practice and cheap. If you can shoot an air gun accurately, you can shoot any shoulder fired gun accurately. Very cheap and good practice.. Keep you skills up.. IMO....

[huntinlever]

With the difficulty getting components; I went back to shooting my air guns, offhand, pellets at $3.00 for 500 is very good practice and cheap. If you can shoot an air gun accurately, you can shoot any shoulder fired gun accurately. Very cheap and good practice.. Keep you skills up.. IMO....

Good call. You sort of nudge me in a thought I had awhile back - would love to make a Skinner work on my gg. My son has a Daisy Powerline so before I commit again to a Skinner sight, I want to make sure my corrected vision can work with an aperture, and so I'll go ahead and get the Pyramidair Daisy Peep. Thanks.

[BLAHUT]

Good call. You sort of nudge me in a thought I had awhile back - would love to make a Skinner work on my gg. My son has a Daisy Powerline so before I commit again to a Skinner sight, I want to make sure my corrected vision can work with an aperture, and so I'll go ahead and get the Pyramidair Daisy Peep. Thanks.

If you work with your peep sight you may not need your corrected glasses. I do not need my corrective lenses' when I shoot my rifles. I just use a cheap pair of bifocal safety glasses, so I can see the sight adjustments, if need be..

[country gent]

In my lyman pot is a sheet metal rack. Its dia is 1/2 smaller than the pot. 3 plates oneis the base the next is the stop plate that sets depth, and the last has 12 holes drilled around the outside. a 1/4" threaded rod sets and holds them together. a thin layer of very fine sand in the pot then the rack. then sand to fill.I insert cases into thetop plate mouth first and work around when 1 empty hole is left I pull a case and insert the next working around until the batch is done. by leaving the empty hole I always know where I am at.
On Starline brass I get a light pink color change. I believe this is because there is no oxygen in the sand to oxidize.
As you use it you will need to add sand for the first few uses as it settles in but its works well.
My pot is dedicated to this but you could clean and use it for casting and this.

THERE IS a accessory for propane torches that directs the flame in a circle for soldering round tubing. one of these on your torch and spinning would make it very consistent.

[Chief TC]

Thanks Chief. I have a lot of brass leftover from other calibers I no longer use so can practice. One question I have is - is annealing pretty tight? What I mean to say, is that if I depend on my "sense" of something like "warm" or "dull red," do the inevitable variances lead to substantially different amounts of softening - so that accuracy is affected significantly?

My understanding is heating the brass to a specific temp which is translated to about 3 seconds and you see the color change and you feel the the bottom of the case get warm. This properly anneals the case so you don't over heat it which can ruin the case and will affect accuracy. Once you practice a little, you will see it is easy and you get in a rhythm and you see how the time, color change and temp all happen at the same time. Like i said, you can watch videos on annealers and this all happens but you are just using your fingers and rotating it yourself. Main thing is make sure you have all your safety factors considered.

[indian joe]

Been reading up on annealing 45-70 brass, specifically Starline Brass. A new subject for me, though I knew what the process was. I resize, trim and crimp every time and though I have a couple hundred cases (in a move, we lost a few hundred more years ago. Yes, it kills me. This is when getting them was easy). I guess I should count myself lucky that so far I'll only have the odd case out, usually from cases bent from one thing or another - no split necks or head case separation signs.

First - how many of you simply don't anneal your 45-70 Starline - especially if you full-length size, trim and crimp every time?

Through searching and reading, I know the processes, including the purchase of annealers, has been covered, but I'm not sure this has specifically been asked. To sink $550+ into a machine at this point is untenable, though if it's significant per below I'll think of a cost-benefit appraisal.

The DIY ones I've seen here and on youtube (linked from here as well), are awesome but I'm afraid my abilities here are very limited, so I'd need actual plans to build one.

I am interested in annealing both for case longevity, and for aiding in accuracy, if applicable.

Which brings me to hand-annealing, via something like Starline itself recommends - hand firing the neck and tilting into water. I know there are others, including using a socket and drill, or sand, or salt, or lead. But the basic premise is the same - fire to some variance on "dull red color," or Tempilaq, or some combination thereof.

To my question: I'm very concerned about ruining brass via overheating or getting too much into the head area. I'm also concerned about reaching a consistent annealing - otherwise, my suspicion is, that with inconsistent anneals that pretty much negates the value with respect to consistency and therefore accuracy.

So: How many of you find hand-annealing unsatisfactory, and have bit the bullet to buy a good machine (I've read mixed things on the Annealese; I'm thinking of the Giraud or Mike's Reloading Bench Annealer)?

https://www.giraudtool.com/giraud-ca...-annealer.html
https://www.mikesreloadingbench.com/mrb2018_006.htm

have not found it necessary to anneal starline 45/70 but then I dont full length size - dont neck size either - I absolutely detest the way commercial dies overwork our expensive brass - squash the necks down to ridiculously small dimensions then open them back up ------when my straight wall cases start to get a little sticky its always at the back end where the case wall meets the solid head - I made body dies on the lathe for that so we just take a tiny bit of that bulge out - only just enough so it chambers easy again - no interference with the neck area at all. When I anneal for reforming brass (or winchester brass for my 22/250) just sit 50 at the time in a tray of water and go at it with the oxy-propane torch - do it in the half dark so you can see the colours in the brass - tip each one over in the water as its done - the water bath stops heat going too far down the case - and tip em over does nothing except clears the way so you get an easy go with the torch - you might burn an occasional case neck if you dont pay attention but this is quick and easy - most other methods I read here are a form of mental torture by comparison (hold each case by hand or a pair of pliers, and turn it in the flame- quench it then do another one - )