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Thread: Harder Cast versus Hard Cast

  1. #41
    Boolit Master
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    Just three things that show an argument just for the sake of arguing for the most part. Really none of this matters as long as the writer's message is getting across.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by charlie b View Post
    Just three things that show an argument just for the sake of arguing for the most part. Really none of this matters as long as the writer's message is getting across.
    On my first post I asked a question. If anyone wanted to answer fine if they didn't fine.
    I have not been unkind to anyone during this. I have not forced anyone to post.
    Thanks to the ones who have posted and I appreciated the time they have taken.
    We Know Mass Cannot Be Weighed But It Has Newtonian Weight And That Is Derived From Kilograms And Kilograms Can Be Converted to Pounds. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed. But How is the kilograms obtained? Can Kilograms Be Weighed? Evidentally Yes It Can. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed So Kilograms Must Not Exist. Funny Isn't It.
    One good thing out of this the next time I'm at the doctors and they want to weigh me I'll tell them mass cannot be weighed.

  3. #43
    Boolit Master KYCaster's Avatar
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    How hard is hard?

    How high is up?

    How low is down?

    How long is far?

    "A riddle wrapped in a mystery inside and enigma." Churchill

    "Don't take the world serious." Berra

    Jerry
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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by 44MAG#1 View Post
    So if the bullet can be scratched it is "soft" and if it can't it is "hard"?
    "Soft" or "hard" relative to what? Since there is span of BHN's where does "soft" fall and where does "hard"fall?
    For my uses the finger nail test is all I need. If I can make an impression with my fingernail, I use it in my muzzle loaders. Otherwise, I use it for more modern rifles, mostly 45/70 these days. Thats the only thing I need to know for my uses. Im sure others who are looking to push the limits want precision, but I dont need it.

  5. #45
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    Maybe we should ask Pfizer what hardness scale they used. . .or maybe we shouldn't. . .

    15BHN would seem a reasonable entry into the arena of "hard" if for no other reason than that's Lyman #2, and an accepted standard for " Now we're playing with bottlenecked rifle cartridges and ~2000 fps launch speeds".
    WWJMBD?

    Is the mightiness of the pen still relevant after we roll the writing paper into cartridges for a Sharps?

  6. #46
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    All of my lead comes from range scrap. Soft to me includes pellet lead, .22lr lead, and JHP core lead. I cast .38WC, .45 SWC bullets, and HP handgun bullets with them. Then there is a mixture of loose lead chunks from JHP and commercial hard cast bullets I call medium. They are for 45-230RN to more hardcase bullets with a higher bhn that I cast 9mm and 40cal TC bullets. I consider Lyman #2 and bhn up as hardcast.

  7. #47
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    This is another discussion where fryxel's book is handy..they shown a scale of hardness soft and up and what cartridges are appropriate. More of a long grey line instead of a black one with a division in the middle somewhere.

  8. #48
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    I'm no expert but imagine that when you get into casting to sell boxes to others if the alloy is too soft there would be potential problems with deformation and denting. thus to provide many boxes of bullets to retailers you would want to have a hard cast product.
    I always thought that "hard cast" was just marketing jargon like "discount tires" but if there is an informal standard of 15bnh, thats good to know.

  9. #49
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    Well, this thread was interesting. If we have to go to the trouble of giving each bhn value a “hard value” name or location between soft and hard why don’t we just stick with the bhn#’s. 5bhn is soft and it gets a little harder as the # increases. Seems mighty simple to me.
    A bumble bee is considerable faster than a John Deere tractor

  10. #50
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    The problem with assigning names/terms to a boolit alloy's hardness is, that it doesn't tell us the whole story. One alloy that measures 16 may be tougher than another...and that first alloy may react different in the chamber (under pressure) than the second one, if it is a different composition. So you can't really judge an alloy's shoot-ability by it's BHN number or a term like Hardcast that has been assigned to a alloy's hardness.

    I will add, that talking about hardness in terms of defining an alloy by it's BHN number does a great deal to confuse those new to the hobby.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by farmbif View Post
    I'm no expert but imagine that when you get into casting to sell boxes to others if the alloy is too soft there would be potential problems with deformation and denting. thus to provide many boxes of bullets to retailers you would want to have a hard cast product.
    I always thought that "hard cast" was just marketing jargon like "discount tires" but if there is an informal standard of 15bnh, thats good to know.
    Another major reason why large commercial casters make the product they do, is because the vast majority of reloaders buying from these large commercial casters are using reloading dies that are designed around using Jacketed bullets, So the product must be more like a Jacketed bullet, than what is likely to work best in the typical firearm that it's made for.

    Long before I was a caster and knew nothing about cast boolits, I was loading thousands of 9mm ammo using commercial cast .356 bullets made from 92/6/2 and lubed with a paraffin based lube, they worked fine for competition, so I was happy with the price savings, but sure I always had some Lead fouling to clean up after a match.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonB_in_Glencoe View Post
    The problem with assigning names/terms to a boolit alloy's hardness is, that it doesn't tell us the whole story. One alloy that measures 16 may be tougher than another...and that first alloy may react different in the chamber (under pressure) than the second one, if it is a different composition. So you can't really judge an alloy's shoot-ability by it's BHN number or a term like Hardcast that has been assigned to a alloy's hardness.
    As far as I know I never mentioned shootability whatever shootability is. If one is talking about accuracy that is dependent on the weakest link in that chain of accuracy and that is the shooter which was never mentioned


    I will add, that talking about hardness in terms of defining an alloy by it's BHN number does a great deal to confuse those new to the hobby.
    My intention was to DEFINE the hardness slang some use. As an example if 15 BHN is hard what is 22 BHN? The word hard is a loose term.
    We Know Mass Cannot Be Weighed But It Has Newtonian Weight And That Is Derived From Kilograms And Kilograms Can Be Converted to Pounds. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed. But How is the kilograms obtained? Can Kilograms Be Weighed? Evidentally Yes It Can. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed So Kilograms Must Not Exist. Funny Isn't It.
    One good thing out of this the next time I'm at the doctors and they want to weigh me I'll tell them mass cannot be weighed.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by 44MAG#1 View Post
    As far as I know I never mentioned shootability whatever shootability is. If one is talking about accuracy that is dependent on the weakest link in that chain of accuracy and that is the shooter which was never mentioned
    If you assemble a load that will create more pressure in the chamber than the alloy can stand, it likely has poor shoot-ability. I brought that up, as the reason most would use BHN numbers or terms like Hardcast as a definition of what will work or not work in a specific load...and as I said, it doesn't tell the whole story...so those terms are useless.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.
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  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by 44MAG#1 View Post
    My intention was to DEFINE the hardness slang some use. As an example if 15 BHN is hard what is 22 BHN? The word hard is a loose term.
    Well then, I would have been better off just saying that Using slang terms like Hardcast or using BHN numbers to describe a specific alloy like 92-6-2 is foolish and should be avoided, so as to not confuse those who are new to the hobby.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.
    ― The Dalai Lama, Seattle Times, May 2001

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by 44MAG#1 View Post
    My intention was to DEFINE the hardness slang some use. As an example if 15 BHN is hard what is 22 BHN? The word hard is a loose term.
    Honest response: you can not define slang in precise terms, as slang is a body of loosely defined words/phrases with no common/accepted meaning/definition which is standard within a language and variance of regional dialect.
    If you are searching for precise definition of marketing terms, also good luck with that. No sarcasm: for an example of that, go look at paint color names for cars, homes, wherever. The same thing will go by a multitude of names depending on the target audience.

    Slang:
    slang
    slăng
    noun

    A kind of language occurring chiefly in casual and playful speech, made up typically of coinages and figures of speech that are deliberately used in place of standard terms for added raciness, humor, irreverence, or other effect.
    Language peculiar to a group; argot or jargon.
    The cant words or jargon used by thieves, peddlers, beggars, and the vagabond classes generally; cant.

    an informal nonstandard vocabulary composed typically of coinages, arbitrarily changed words, and extravagant, forced, or facetious figures of speech

    I think you are on a search to define the tree species which comprises the surface layer of composite laminate flooring... (That's an analogy.)
    Last edited by TurnipEaterDown; 01-25-2023 at 10:30 PM.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonB_in_Glencoe View Post
    If you assemble a load that will create more pressure in the chamber than the alloy can stand, it likely has poor shoot-ability. I brought that up, as the reason most would use BHN numbers or terms like Hardcast as a definition of what will work or not work in a specific load...and as I said, it doesn't tell the whole story...so those terms are useless.
    That may be true .
    That is the responsibility of the shooter to determine the "hardcast" bullet they need. Still if "Hard" is considered 15 BHN than what is 22 BHN? You are wanting to get into reloading/loading idiosyncrasies that wasn't my question originally posted
    We Know Mass Cannot Be Weighed But It Has Newtonian Weight And That Is Derived From Kilograms And Kilograms Can Be Converted to Pounds. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed. But How is the kilograms obtained? Can Kilograms Be Weighed? Evidentally Yes It Can. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed So Kilograms Must Not Exist. Funny Isn't It.
    One good thing out of this the next time I'm at the doctors and they want to weigh me I'll tell them mass cannot be weighed.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonB_in_Glencoe View Post
    Well then, I would have been better off just saying that Using slang terms like Hardcast or using BHN numbers to describe a specific alloy like 92-6-2 is foolish and should be avoided, so as to not confuse those who are new to the hobby.
    BHN represents a number that is legitimate. It is done through a test. I would not call BHN slang.
    We Know Mass Cannot Be Weighed But It Has Newtonian Weight And That Is Derived From Kilograms And Kilograms Can Be Converted to Pounds. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed. But How is the kilograms obtained? Can Kilograms Be Weighed? Evidentally Yes It Can. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed So Kilograms Must Not Exist. Funny Isn't It.
    One good thing out of this the next time I'm at the doctors and they want to weigh me I'll tell them mass cannot be weighed.

  18. #58
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    You seem to have a real good handle on this Slang thing. You should just take the lead and assign your preferred slang names. I do have one suggestion, as you wouldn't have to stick with the slang that has been previously been misused, like "Hardcast", "harder hardcast", "hardest Hardcast" and so on, you could avoid the past tense-present tense confusion by just assigning colors? Maybe just borrow the Resistor color code chart, less thinking that way.
    https://eepower.com/resistor-guide/r...r-color-code/#
    Then all the booliteers that like to Powder Coat their boolits, could color code their boolits to match the BHN of the alloy they used. That just might make it more legitimate.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.
    ― The Dalai Lama, Seattle Times, May 2001

  19. #59
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    If 15 BHN is hard. 22 BHN is very hard. Then, very very hard.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonB_in_Glencoe View Post
    44,
    You seem to have a real good handle on this Slang thing. You should just take the lead and assign your preferred slang names. I do have one suggestion, as you wouldn't have to stick with the slang that has been previously been misused, like "Hardcast", "harder hardcast", "hardest Hardcast" and so on, you could avoid the past tense-present tense confusion by just assigning colors? Maybe just borrow the Resistor color code chart, less thinking that way.
    https://eepower.com/resistor-guide/r...r-color-code/#
    Then all the booliteers that like to Powder Coat their boolits, could color code their boolits to match the BHN of the alloy they used. That just might make it more legitimate.
    Colors wouldn't work. That would be like saying "I drive a blue truck". That wouldn't tell the brand, model or year

    Is it a full size pick up, a compact pick up a dump truck or a tractor trailer. Is it a 4 wheel drive, is it a two wheel drive? Our neighbor drives a full size pick up yo work where he drives a dump truck. They vary at times as to color.
    We Know Mass Cannot Be Weighed But It Has Newtonian Weight And That Is Derived From Kilograms And Kilograms Can Be Converted to Pounds. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed. But How is the kilograms obtained? Can Kilograms Be Weighed? Evidentally Yes It Can. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed So Kilograms Must Not Exist. Funny Isn't It.
    One good thing out of this the next time I'm at the doctors and they want to weigh me I'll tell them mass cannot be weighed.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check